Female Hrothgar as a playable race. Show your support!

[Silverbane]

But do want this:

I want female Hrothgar to be beastly cause that is what makes sense ...

Your example shows a lizard woman with breasts. So to me, "what makes sense" isn't expressed by that example.

I like breasts as much as the next person, but felines of all sizes only have visible breasts when nursing. It would make sense, then, for fem Hrothgar PCs to not have much if any visible breast -- as a I posted previously, the slider could go from "none" to "A-cup." And I don't see much use in fem Hrothgar being just another hourglass body with fur and a different head.

It's not like women need large breasts to be beautiful, after all.
There's some very beautiful small-breasted ballet dancers out there, for example.
If fem Viera bodies are modeled on super-models, maybe fem Hrothgar could be modeled on ballerinas.

[Pip_Chick]

Your example shows a lizard woman with breasts. So to me, "what makes sense" isn't expressed by that example.

I like breasts as much as the next person, but felines of all sizes only have visible breasts when nursing. It would make sense, then, for fem Hrothgar PCs to not have much if any visible breast -- as a I posted previously, the slider could go from "none" to "A-cup." And I don't see much use in fem Hrothgar being just another hourglass body with fur and a different head.

It's not like women need large breasts to be beautiful, after all.
There's some very beautiful small-breasted ballet dancers out there, for example.
If fem Viera bodies are modeled on super-models, maybe fem Hrothgar could be modeled on ballerinas.

1) You totally missed the point of my argument. You went for the fact that they are lizard women, not feline (and apparently totally missed the Khajit which are feline). When I said about what makes sense I was trying to show that I along with others don't want them to look like children or a totally different species (as seen in the other pictures that I showed).

2) What do you have against big breasts? Like I get that felines in the wild act like that, but even with the males their body, arms and legs are distinctly modelled to mimic human anatomy. So I don't see why they shouldn't have them. And sorry but if you want women with small breasts that are modelled after ballerinas you already have them: Midlander, Elezen, Miquo'te and Au'ra. They all have smaller breasts compared to Female Viera and Roegadin and their bodies are much smaller and slender. Besides Making Female Hrothgar look like ballerinas wouldn't make sense when put next to the males that clearly fill the "warrior" archetype. I only see it fit and makes sense to have Hrothgar on both sides of the gender fill that archetype.

3) Not saying you are wrong, don't want to attack you. Just that your interpretation doesn't make sense to me.

[Silverbane]

if you want women with small breasts that are modelled after ballerinas you already have them: Midlander, Elezen, Miquo'te and Au'ra.

Not hardly. So I'm guessing you don't know many professional ballerinas.
You want fem Hrothgar to be feline warriors, then giving them the strong, agile, flexible, svelte, lithe bodies of pro ballerinas is a fitting option. After all, with the exception of those lazy and semi-useless male lions, felines are generally strong, agile, flexible, svelte, and lithe.

BTW, my spouse would find your accusation that I have something against large breasts pretty ludicrous, as would anyone who looked at my 12 alts. But I think it's high time FFXIV expanded our options for creating great-looking fem characters, and not by just plopping a cat head and some fur on yet another sex-doll body.

[Pip_Chick]

Not hardly. So I'm guessing you don't know many professional ballerinas.
You want fem Hrothgar to be feline warriors, then giving them the strong, agile, flexible, svelte, lithe bodies of pro ballerinas is a fitting option. After all, with the exception of those lazy and semi-useless male lions, felines are generally strong, agile, flexible, svelte, and lithe.

Ow, now I see what you mean, yeah that makes sense, though still, my first instinct wouldn't be to go toward ballerinas, more towards gymnasts.

BTW, my spouse would find your accusation that I have something against large breasts pretty ludicrous, as would anyone who looked at my 12 alts. But I think it's high time FFXIV expanded our options for creating great-looking fem characters, and not by just plopping a cat head and some fur on yet another sex-doll body.

Tell your spouse that I am sorry. I felt a little bit into catty behaviour there, just don't like when people say negative things about big breasts or invalidate them on the basis that smaller ones are more appropriate for an athletic build. Cause I myself have them on the bigger side and my job is in the sport field (all be it, not balley) felt a little bit called out. I still should not have said that, I apologise.

[Silverbane]

Ow, now I see what you mean, yeah that makes sense, though still, my first instinct wouldn't be to go toward ballerinas, more towards gymnasts.

Female gymnast are almost all children; I'd rather not give pedophiles anything to play with (other than lalas).
Top ballerinas can keep performing into their 30's and you'd never mistake them for a child.
And pro ballerinas are incredible athletes. I don't think they'd take second place to gymnasts in any aspect.

Of course, the line between pro dancer and gymnast is fuzzy, as anyone who's seen Cirque du Soleil can testify.

[Pip_Chick]

Female gymnast are almost all children; I'd rather not give pedophiles anything to play with (other than lalas).
Top ballerinas can keep performing into their 30's and you'd never mistake them for a child.
And pro ballerinas are incredible athletes. I don't think they'd take second place to gymnasts in any aspect.

Of course, the line between pro dancer and gymnast is fuzzy, as anyone who's seen Cirque du Soleil can testify.

Huh, I didn't know that, always thought that those careers end up in their early 20. I should do more research on them cause that's interesting.

[Adamantini]

(...)

I agree with the point that the lizard shouldn't have breasts, as it doesn't make sense for a non-mammal creature to have breasts.

But I must disagree about the shape of the breasts of a likely feline, as they are half human. If we were to take into account more feline traits, not only would the breasts not be visible, but there would be more (I believe a total of 6).
But as I said earlier, they are half human, which makes them only have 2 breasts.

The only game (that I can remember off the top of my head at the moment) that made a race of lizards, where the woman really made sense, was Divinity 2 Original Sin. Follow image

[reivaxe]

Please don't redefine words, the meaning of popularity, conform to the dictionary is: "The state or condition of being liked, admired, or supported by many people."
"Not trying to make the most popular thing is one thing, using that as an excuse to make something utterly unpopular for a game is another"? You don't know how popular they will be until they come out that is an objective fact, as well as that beast races are a niche not everyone enjoys.[

I think you don't understand, I didn't redefine "Popularity". I said that popularity is determined by the execution of something, not just the concept of or the idea of it. Like I said, I could take the concept of Draggo girls and make it far, FAR less popular with some changes. First, what's the driving concept behind Au Ra? Reptile/ demon race ... that's it. Does this scream "Popular"? In fact, the devs made them as "beastly" as they could without falling into the Viera/ Hrothgar head limit trap, so even if it doesn't seem like it ... Draggo girls are the most beastly females in the game until Hrothgals come.

So yeah, let's change somethings about female Au Ra that would be in line with the concept of "reptile/ demon person" but make them less popular.
What if ... they had huge, thick plates of scales covering the top half of their face (maybe even making it look like cracked porcelain!)? And along with that, what if the lower half of their face looked like Mileena's from MK? They would still be able to wear headgear, shockingly enough, because that's all a very human shaped head. What if instead of being demure, their animations were savage and tense? Instead of having elegant looking horns, theirs are now just as spikey and oversized as the males...

If you applied all these changes to them ... I'm 100% sure they wouldn't be as popular as they currently are, not by a long shot. They would still have the same idea behind them (reptile/ demon people) but very different reaches in popularity. Assuming you know what the devs WOULD do and how far they WOULD push something, and coming to the conclusion that the concept (Beast race) is already "niche" is a mistake imo. I'm sure I already see a race beast race in this game that would be "Popular" if made PC (Loporrits). So yeah, they can design them in a way that reaches/ appeals to a decent amount of people oooor in a way that makes just 5 people happy ... it's completely up to them. They don't have to be overly concerned with making them overly popular to still take this into consideration when designing them. Like I said, there's a difference between accepting that what you want to do might not be super popular annnd simply making something to be a niche within a niche. Like, there's a reason I don't think they're gonna look like Dulia-Chai

Truly, I'm not and never have been a fan of thinking that we can dictate or demand anything outta these devs to suit our wants/ expectations/ reasoning. Theorizing what they WILL do based on what they HAVE done is 1 thing, saying that "X is WRONG/ BAD and they shouldn't do it" is lame af to me.

Like 1 of your examples ... this bull/ cow coupleDOES look like the same race to me, the same way these two people and these Apes are of the same species/ race.

Like this ...

Your example shows a lizard woman with breasts. So to me, "what makes sense" isn't expressed by that example.

I like breasts as much as the next person, but felines of all sizes only have visible breasts when nursing. It would make sense, then, for fem Hrothgar PCs to not have much if any visible breast -- as a I posted previously, the slider could go from "none" to "A-cup." And I don't see much use in fem Hrothgar being just another hourglass body with fur and a different head.

It's not like women need large breasts to be beautiful, after all.
There's some very beautiful small-breasted ballet dancers out there, for example.
If fem Viera bodies are modeled on super-models, maybe fem Hrothgar could be modeled on ballerinas.

I have absolutely no problem with the devs taking the female Au Ra model and up scaling it to make feminine, thin, ballerina like elegant Hrothgals with flat b-cup-at-best boobs. That would actually be unique, all the women taller than Mid's are all stacked in boobs, and I can agree to an extent that it would show a different side to beauty by embracing something they haven't tried yet.

But the logic fails on me, I don't think of Hrothgar as "CATS that can talk" so saying that they shouldn't have boobs is just silly. If the devs want to make them small/ flat chested-yet-feminine af Ballerina types, then cool. But I'm not with saying that they should or shouldn't do something or how far they should or shouldn't go just to please my personal taste.

If they make Hrothgals have heads that are just stylized cat heads and have them look as trash as the males do in most shared hairstyles (in the EXPAC we're getting a graphics update no less) then so be it. If they make them Mithra I'm fine with that to. So long as they feminine, I'm sure I'll be happy.

[Pip_Chick]

If they make Hrothgals have heads that are just stylized cat heads and have them look as trash as the males do in most shared hairstyles (in the EXPAC we're getting a graphics update no less) then so be it. If they make them Mithra I'm fine with that to. So long as they feminine, I'm sure I'll be happy.

I think we can agree to disagree on this one. Warrior women are still feminine and beautiful, even if you might not see them that way. The bull image is a complete and utter disappointment, they look like the same species, but not a full grown man and woman. More like a dad and daughter thing going on there with immense perv pandering on the female.

Mithra is literally the Miquo'te of FFXI. No one wants a bigger Miquo'te cause that would be a waste of time. Why are you keeping it to the flat faces? Everyone who wants to play Hrothgar doesn't want just a taller Miquo'te with a fur texture. Tons of fan art that I have seen has them with Snouts and look like a female variant of a Hrothgar instead of a bad-looking Mythra!

When I say I want them to look cohesive and like they are part of the Hrothgar species, I mean a Beast-looking woman, not a Miquo'te, Mithra or the Loprits, they all mean nothing to me or this discussion cause they are all FLAT FACED when Hrothgar are not! Instead of a perv pandering flat face woman with a fur texture slapped on, why can't we get something cool? And just on the fear that not a lot of people are gonna play them. And no those won't be 5 people as you say, even female Roe has over 15K players (at endgame) and they are the least played race/gender combo.

Instead of concerning yourself with what the players that already play the game think, why not consider the people that would like to play the game but don't want to play any of the current races, but might like Female Hrothgar? That is and was the original point with Hrothgar. They added Viera for the existing players, but Hrothgar was always meant to attract new and different people into the game. There are a lot of players who ONLY play beast races and won't touch the game unless they can play as that and YP knows this, that is why he said that adding them is for the long-time health of the game. I know a lot of people who flat-out refused to play this game purely because they weren't given any options in terms of beast races.

That is why I say to not give them a flat face purely on the "Their hats will fit" notion, cause that is a non-issue! Wanna know how much it takes to modify a hat to fit on a Hrothgar head? 10 minutes. +/- 2 minutes for opening the folders. For that to have a botched race? No thank you. Make them right or not at all. At this point I don't even care about the body, I just want them to keep their beast features. Just as players hated when Hrothgar lost their ears, just like that they will get pissed for having a Mithra with a furry texture on top.

[reivaxe]

I think we can agree to disagree on this one. Warrior women are still feminine and beautiful, even if you might not see them that way.

This line of logic always leads to .. "So why not have them look like Dulia-Chai with a beast like head? They're not overly focused on making them popular, right? And they're gonna be niche anyway, so why not have them rep the obese and fight against Fatphobia for the handful who are interested in that type of character?" in my mind. Something maybe not being popular doesn't really write a free check to toss away all game demographic logic imo.

And it may not seem like it, but I absolutely loathe talking about the popularity of beast races in MMOs. The notion that they're all doomed to be niche/ very unpopular no matter what pretty much comes outta nowhere space these days, as ... MMOs are a dead genre and there's only 3 big ones out right now that are not FF14.

Using WoW stats as a base? I toss those in the trash. WoW races are class locked/ Faction locked/ some must be unlocked in game/ they have like 100 races and can fart them out however often they want because WoW runs on a potato.
ESO stats? Can't use those stats, the race bonus/ boons makes some races meta for some classes. So Khajiit being one of the most popular races in a game with a very good population spread across races means nothing apparently.
What's comparable to FF14? GW2 ... no race locked classes and no meta race/ class combos. All races have good spread and yeah, Charr come in last. But wait, Male Charr are the 2nd most popular male race and the most popular non-human or female Norn option. The reason the race is in last is that people who love playing big/ loud monster cat dudes don't want to play the basically-no-sexual-dimorphism females.

Other than that? All other MMOs are either Eastern Gotcha/ loot box/ P2W trash with only humans. Or they're things looong dead like Wild Star that started death spiraling the moment they came out. Or they're like Bless and have been released/ Re-released over and over because they keep crashing and burning AND they're race/ class locked anyway. Or there's Tera, which is shut/ shutting down after all these years now ... and was loot-box trash marketed purely to Pedo-bait lovers.

Like, there's simply no way to convince me that there's no way to design something more animal like that gets decent love in this game. Perhaps what you envision wouldn't be popular, but that's not the only option. Like, what's even the "magic amount" to this? Is this or this too beastly to be decently popular? How many MMOs got generally attractive furry types, anyway?

So yeah, that's always a hill I'm willing to die on even though I really don't care to bring it up. "It's gonna be niche anyway" is just always gonna fall flat to me.
And yeah, I really don't care about large amounts of sexual dimorphism. It's a part of the world, and knowing customers means knowing that groups pick certain things for certain reasons. Rejecting that in the name of visual fairness simply leads to fewer people enjoying something they could have enjoyed.
So yeah, we'd have to agree to disagree ... some 6ft Bull chilling with a short stack bull is cool with me. lul

That sounds awesome.

I know, that's why I framed it that way!
Cause it's fair, some would love that ... but I don't think they would be the 2nd most popular females in the game like that. The very concept of a demon/ reptile girl isn't in of itself a super popular idea. Making them the way they currently are is why they're popular AF. They could have made choices that would have made them far less popular, just like they can make choices that result in more or fewer people playing Hrothgals.