Reaper needs additional buffs.

[wereotter]

Raid buffs are not utility, DRG doesn't even have a defensive and has no utility, NiN has no utility, meanwhile RPR has a very strong raid utility and defensive ability with a very short cooldown that can out heal some tanks.
I'd say that's pretty balanced if they are 1-2% behind in dps at the cost of having crest.

Raid buffs are exactly how they balance damage. If they had ninja get maximum possible damage, think black mage level, because it has no utility by your definition, no one would bring samurai into a party because ninja would do the same damage while also bringing mug. No one would bring monk to anything because monk would have to do less damage than ninja because it has mudra, and brotherhood isn't more potent than mug.

Dragoon has effects that increase the damage other party members do, and has more of them than other jobs with both battle litany and dragon sight, other melees just have one party-wide damage increasing skill while dragoon can increase the party's damage as well as a selected party member. Additionally while dragoon might not have a shield, its the only melee with passive healing as part of its regular rotation, so it is probably fine as far as they see the balance of this job and the others.

[Lyth]

...

When people do comparisons on average job dps, they're generally looking at rDPS which intrinsically takes raid damage buffs into account. So when a job does less rDPS than the others, you can't really make the argument that it's balanced on the basis of raid damage buffs. The real reason why this is done is a function of job popularity. The role as a whole has a fairly close balance, but discrepancies encourages players to jump into other jobs. This will get rebalanced eventually as RPR falls out of favor.

My worry at the moment is how any potency gains will get redistributed. I don't think that raising the average GCD value was a good idea at all, when the job is so focused around resource/burst management. It also raises a question over the role of actions like Harvest Moon, especially in situations when you're allowed to maintain full uptime.

[wereotter]

When people do comparisons on average job dps, they're generally looking at rDPS which intrinsically takes raid damage buffs into account. So when a job does less rDPS than the others, you can't really make the argument that it's balanced on the basis of raid damage buffs. The real reason why this is done is a function of job popularity. The role as a whole has a fairly close balance, but discrepancies encourages players to jump into other jobs. This will get rebalanced eventually as RPR falls out of favor.

My worry at the moment is how any potency gains will get redistributed. I don't think that raising the average GCD value was a good idea at all, when the job is so focused around resource/burst management. It also raises a question over the role of actions like Harvest Moon, especially in situations when you're allowed to maintain full uptime.

We're on the same page here.

The person was trying to say that jobs like ninja don't have party utility because they don't count party buffs as utility. I do think jobs should be more or less balanced around rDPS. Thing is I know they never will be perfectly balanced both due to the literally impossible nature of making that happen, and even if they could manage that on a computer simulation, player skill would break that anyway. So I really only care that they make an effort for them to be close to each other within their role.

[grinkdaboy]

my only beef with reaper is that it is possible to overwrite gluttony/gibbet/gallow/soul reaver stacks.

why?

[MagiusNecros]

my only beef with reaper is that it is possible to overwrite gluttony/gibbet/gallow/soul reaver stacks.

why?

I think the devs want you to commit to those attacks to give the job some artificial difficulty.

I don't do it often but if I lose Reaver stacks because I wombo combo Gluttony and Harvest Moon in the wrong order it feels bad.

[ZiraZ]

Raid buffs are exactly how they balance damage. If they had ninja get maximum possible damage, think black mage level, because it has no utility by your definition, no one would bring samurai into a party because ninja would do the same damage while also bringing mug. No one would bring monk to anything because monk would have to do less damage than ninja because it has mudra, and brotherhood isn't more potent than mug.

Dragoon has effects that increase the damage other party members do, and has more of them than other jobs with both battle litany and dragon sight, other melees just have one party-wide damage increasing skill while dragoon can increase the party's damage as well as a selected party member. Additionally while dragoon might not have a shield, its the only melee with passive healing as part of its regular rotation, so it is probably fine as far as they see the balance of this job and the others.

Raid Buffs are still not utility and that's a big lmao at comparing life surge with the other melees defensives.

Direct healing from a DPS that can’t be targeted (think something like phoenix astral flow which even that is pretty useless since SMN’s rotation is so static) is completely useless because healer kits are all bloated with overpowered heals and damage output by bosses is pathetic (I’ll kinda pass curing waltz as stacked curing waltz can replace an entire healing oGCD but arcane crest isn’t even close)

About the only true utility left that’s not role wide is expedient, mantra, natures minne and magic barrier

Arcane crest is not worth even close to how far behind RPR is in melee damage

It's not only a heal, it's also a personal shield defensive on an extremely low cooldown, it can outheal tanks in overall heal/absorb, that is absolutely not completely useless, it doesn't even overheal that much so it's absolutely doing its work.
If it's so useless why is everyone pressing it?

[remiff]

Raid Buffs are still not utility and that's a big lmao at comparing life surge with the other melees defensives.

It's not only a heal, it's also a personal shield defensive on an extremely low cooldown, it can outheal tanks in overall heal/absorb, that is absolutely not completely useless, it doesn't even overheal that much so it's absolutely doing its work.
If it's so useless why is everyone pressing it?

I don't really agree with you, raidbuffs are extremely useful and square enix has always made its job balancing based on these, it's not for nothing that they don't really like to buff jobs that bring a lot of support, each teambuff/mobility is a reason for them to tax dps, but currently melee like ninja and drg are at the top of the rankings when they theoretically should never be because yes they have the utility, the ninja brings 5% more damage for the whole team every 120s, in an opener it's extremely effective, the drg brings 10% crit whole team + 5% damage to a teammate for 20s with a 120s cooldown, if we looked at the rDPS jobs included they are respectively top 1-2, and even in aDPS they are very closes to the black mage and samourai while they have no synergy.

[Naomishtola]

I don't really agree with you, raidbuffs are extremely useful and square enix has always made its job balancing based on these, it's not for nothing that they don't really like to buff jobs that bring a lot of support, each teambuff/mobility is a reason for them to tax dps, but currently melee like ninja and drg are at the top of the rankings when they theoretically should never be because yes they have the utility, the ninja brings 5% more damage for the whole team every 120s, in an opener it's extremely effective, the drg brings 10% crit whole team + 5% damage to a teammate for 20s with a 120s cooldown, if we looked at the rDPS jobs included they are respectively top 1-2, and even in aDPS they are very closes to the black mage and samourai while they have no synergy.

They all are pretty even in terms of adps tho? (data taken from Abyssos normal and new EX trial)


Not really sure if raid buffs can be called utility as they offer no extra mitigation or party benefit other than extra damage. While on the other hand reaper does have arcane crest which does take a load off healers and is extra mitigation on an insanely low cooldown. I would understand if NIN and DRG would have the same, but they don't. NINs Shadeshift has a 120s cooldown and does not provide the healing aspect, Dragoon just straight up doesn't have any personal/raidwide defensive cooldown other than feint which every melee has access too. Looking at the healing section, a good reaper heals for twice as much as any other melee dps. I'd love if other melee dps classes had this sort of defensive utility (well monk does to a certain extend)

[Aco505]

I don't really agree with you, raidbuffs are extremely useful and square enix has always made its job balancing based on these, it's not for nothing that they don't really like to buff jobs that bring a lot of support, each teambuff/mobility is a reason for them to tax dps, but currently melee like ninja and drg are at the top of the rankings when they theoretically should never be because yes they have the utility, the ninja brings 5% more damage for the whole team every 120s, in an opener it's extremely effective, the drg brings 10% crit whole team + 5% damage to a teammate for 20s with a 120s cooldown, if we looked at the rDPS jobs included they are respectively top 1-2, and even in aDPS they are very closes to the black mage and samourai while they have no synergy.

Damage buffs are not utility. As someone already mentioned, utility are things that help the party in other ways than damage such as defensives, healing abilities and so on.

DPS jobs are mostly balanced around their damage in two different ways: buff contribution and personal damage. Utility does not seem to be factored at all. The only role in which this seems to be the case is tanks, especially WAR.

When a job has high buff contribution, it deals less personal damage and vice versa. This is why SAM, for instance, benefits a lot from buffs, because they deal more personal damage and provide no buff, but this extra damage from others' buffs is there thanks to the buffing jobs providing such bonuses. So there is you could say some kind of feedback between buffing and non-buffing jobs.

Then you have jobs in the middle that provide a buff, but also have good personal damage. These are MNK and RPR. NIN is overtuned right now but before was closer to DRG than the other two, making DRG and NIN the "buffer" melees.

The problem with RPR is that their buff is weak, and their personal damage does not compensate for it, in part because Arcane Circle is also a "selfish" buff but also because 3% is a weird number. It kinda works for SMN due to how long it lasts, but not so much for RPR.

DRG has no utility at all besides the one shared by all melee DPS: Feint. It is absolutely powerless when any kind of extra damage or raidwide comes its way, because it has no defensive ability unique to the job to mitigate the attack, whereas this is the case for the others.

MCH is in a similar spot: damage aside, it provides no unique benefit to the team, and that's one of the reasons why MCH players have been complaining for a while, alongside others like their actual identity as a "selfish" job, the way it plays, queen usage and so on.