MSQ Difficulty and Exclusion

[ZedxKayn]

If people survived ShB leveling dungeons there's no reason they couldn't survive EW content if it was harder. Do people become worse upon finishing ShB? Games are supposed to become harder or at least stagnate after a point, not become grossly easier.

The issue with the EW dungeons is that they hit like wet noodles while restricting how much you pull too much.

Holminster Switch or Mt. Gulg for example were great because players had the option to push themselves and go for big, painful pulls. Not having this option make EW dungeons an absolute bore.
"Dungeons are boring" but they don't have to be.

[Jojoya]

I feel like we already have a good bridge with the quality video guides that are out there. Unfortunately, people don't want to do a little studying beforehand.

You can hand a novice piano player the sheet music for a complicated piano piece to study. They still aren't going to be able to play it because they haven't developed the skill.

Guides aren't bridges because they don't provide a place to practice the intermediate skills that need to be mastered.

I think what people are practically saying when they say they want MSQ content to be harder is not that we want light rampart or limit cut in MSQ, but just everything should hurt a bit more and healing to be more demanding.

There's a point when skill caps are reached and a player will not be able to perform any better than they already are. Increasing the skill cap for MSQ would prevent players who have reached their cap from continuing with the rest of the game even though they never had intent to participate in EX/Savage/Ultimate.

Or were you expecting the players who are demanding that the content be more difficult to carry those players through that content?

That is why the higher difficulty content gets added as side content. So players of varying skill levels can enjoy the story content while players looking for greater challenge can get that through the side content.

At a time when SE is improving accessibility to the MSQ for players who have issues with group content, do you honestly believe they're going to increase skill cap on the MSQ?

[Tetsujin]

It's strange. To me, it feels like they've gotten cheaper but not more difficult. I don't know when every dungeon boss mechanic started to give out vulnerability, but speaking as someone who goes in blind into all of them, seems they're all nearly "you got touched twice you die" even though they're not more complex or engaging.

I think so far ShB had better dungeon bosses/balance/mechanics with some exceptions. The first EW dungeon was fire though, really loved the hectic pace in that fight. I've just re-subbed so, might impression might change as I inevitably juggle my memory playing in the following days, but I remember having a similar thought in 6.0.

[Dzian]

Since this seems to be the first MMO for a large number of those players, one would be foolish to ignore the possibility that "harder story line = fewer subscribers = lower income".

I can guarantee that "harder story line = more subscribers = higher income" is not a possibility in the video game MMORPG industry, or someone would have done exactly that at some point in the last two decades. [Rest in Peace, Wildstar].

Wildstars issue was the effort to reward ratio... same as this game
People don't do the harder content because the rewards aren't valuable or worth it. Everything is just throw away trash..wildstar tried to ramp up the difficulty but kept the trash tier rewards structure /treadmill. Therefore what you got out wasn't worth what you invested in. And that's why the game tanked. It wasn't satisfying to play.

To offer a counter point t though one of the most important aspects to ayer retention is engagement and fun. When a game is to easy. Like 14 tends to be. Ayers get bored and drop there subscriptions...

Ramp up the difficulty even to just the normal raid tier levels. And you add to the engagement factor. More engagement equals more fun. Equals more time playing. equals more subs.

It is a balancing act though. As ramp it up to much and engagement becomes frustration and drives players away just as quickly as setting the bar to low does..

Many of the players I've tried to pull into 14 have eall given it up be ause its just not satisfactory or gripping enough to keep them engaged.. the bar is set so low it destroys the atmosphere of the story.. the world is in danger all hope is lost.. here's comes the warrior of light to basic auto attack his way to victory and save the day while he eats a sandwich or answers the door..

[Mosha]

You can hand a novice piano player the sheet music for a complicated piano piece to study. They still aren't going to be able to play it because they haven't developed the skill.

Guides aren't bridges because they don't provide a place to practice the intermediate skills that need to be mastered.


There's a point when skill caps are reached and a player will not be able to perform any better than they already are. Increasing the skill cap for MSQ would prevent players who have reached their cap from continuing with the rest of the game even though they never had intent to participate in EX/Savage/Ultimate.

Or were you expecting the players who are demanding that the content be more difficult to carry those players through that content?

That is why the higher difficulty content gets added as side content. So players of varying skill levels can enjoy the story content while players looking for greater challenge can get that through the side content.

At a time when SE is improving accessibility to the MSQ for players who have issues with group content, do you honestly believe they're going to increase skill cap on the MSQ?

I honestly don't think the playerbase is so inept that raising difficulty a tad, so you have to respect content in nm is going to cause a huge apocalyptic crisis. i just want the tankbuster to hurt my dood.

[Mikey_R]

There's a point when skill caps are reached and a player will not be able to perform any better than they already are. Increasing the skill cap for MSQ would prevent players who have reached their cap from continuing with the rest of the game even though they never had intent to participate in EX/Savage/Ultimate.

The question I ask is, who determines the skill cap for the MSQ?

Let's get down to the nitty gritty. FFXIV's MSQ does already have a difficulty curve. You cannot say Sastasha is the same difficulty as The Keeper of the Lake, to give an extreme example. You can start comparing to other endgame dungeons, Baelsar's Wall, Ghimlyt Dark, Pagalth'an, The Dead Ends or any other dungeon you want really. While there might be some anomalies, the general trend is that the difficulty rises, it might not be by much, but it does.

With this said, there has been someone who has already posted in this topic saying that, due to personal restrictions, they struggle to get past certain bosses. I believe this person has also said they do not want it to be any harder (correct me if I am wrong), however, what about the person that cannot get to that point? They aren't skilled enough to get past that certain solo duty, even on very easy that they have been walled off from the rest of the MSQ. Should they not have a say in the difficulty of the game? If they wanted to make the game easier so that they could access the rest of the story, should that be allowed? Even if it means removing all complexity from a dungeon? Yes, it is an extreme point, but if the claim is that the MSQ should be accessible to virtually everyone, then that is the road you need to consider.

I don't remember which topic this next point was from, however I remember reading somewhere that someone could not complete a duty with trusts, so resorted to using the DF to get through. The healer can always res you if you fail and it isn't an instant wipe after all. The thing is, have they bothered to learn the fight or are they just expecting to waltz right on through? Is it fair to get carried through that fight just because you didn't learn from your past mistakes? This is obviously purely a mechanic problem, since DPS doesn't matter in dungeons (except rare cases of very very easy checks). If it is a case that their personal attributes doesn't allow them to clear, should it be made easier to allow them to clear it via trusts?

As with everything, there is a balancing act that needs to be achieved and you are not going to balance it to everyone's tastes. The difficulty curve needs to keep rising, even if it is a very shallow incline but at some point, you are going to leave someone behind.

[Nizzi]

snip

Your entire post has literally nothing to do with what I wrote. You know that optimization is trying to do things optimally, right? When jobs aren't engaging, I'm not going to do content that isn't engaging - aka normal easy content because I play this game to have fun, actually.

You made the hard parts of the game easy for yourself because hard was too hard, now don't come and cry for the easy parts of the game to bmade harder.

I literally said I think the MSQ being accessible is good. Don't accuse me of doing anything when you aren't even replying to what I'm saying and just going off on some irrelevant random tangent.

[Puksi]

Don't get too attached to this game, OP, because when you get too old for your ideal target demographic you'll need to uninstall. Don't hold back the generations behind you! Despite, you know, this game relying heavily on nostalgia by rehashing a franchise that began in what, 1987? With a successful spinoff TV series about a father bonding with his son over the game. And a director that's pushing 50. In fact, I'd be willing to bet gil that the majority of the people who actually make FFXIV don't fit your ideal target demographic.

So it might not be they're accommodating at all. It might just be they're making what they find fun as older players themselves. Time to hand out those pink slips!

While the mental image of Yoshida doing the "How do you do, fellow kids?" scene gave me a chuckle, why are there always younger fans of older series who are like this. smh.

If you really need some spice in your MSQ, maybe unequip some gear or even your job stone for that real FromSoftware experience? I still fondly remember running into Girtab as a sprout in the Shroud, wearing nothing but starter gear.

[Supersnow845]

Don't get too attached to this game, OP, because when you get too old for your ideal target demographic you'll need to uninstall. Don't hold back the generations behind you! Despite, you know, this game relying heavily on nostalgia by rehashing a franchise that began in what, 1987? With a successful spinoff TV series about a father bonding with his son over the game. And a director that's pushing 50. In fact, I'd be willing to bet gil that the majority of the people who actually make FFXIV don't fit your ideal target demographic.

So it might not be they're accommodating at all. It might just be they're making what they find fun as older players themselves. Time to hand out those pink slips!

While the mental image of Yoshida doing the "How do you do, fellow kids?" scene gave me a chuckle, why are there always younger fans of older series who are like this. smh.

If you really need some spice in your MSQ, maybe unequip some gear or even your job stone for that real FromSoftware experience? I still fondly remember running into Girtab as a sprout in the Shroud, wearing nothing but starter gear.

Don’t unequip your job stone in group content, that isn’t making your job more difficult it’s making 3/7 other people carry you

[Puksi]

But it would make it more challenging for the rest of the group. It actually seems very thoughtful to the Worthy Gamers who crave Savage mode even in their normals. Bonus gamer cred if you never do your job quests!