What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[MikkoAkure]

Also, re: flying wolves - you can go back and forth on the nuances of this based on the limited presentation we were given, but the works of creation we see on Elpis are to help create and support a robust ecosystem, and the entire purpose of Elpis itself is to be responsible and make sure you don't just go around unleashing on-a-whim creations that would ultimately do harm or have poor quality of life. Saying "they were making flying wolves for no better reason than they could" is really reductive, and feels like another part of "Ancients are Wrong no matter what." Are they being irresponsible in their use of Creation magic, silly people playing at gods making fire wolves and walking sharks, or are they too responsible and stringent, hence the process in Elpis that sometimes involve Euthanization to make sure creations can't do greater harm - and are reflective of a society that's too conformist? Well, either way, the most pressing, urgent point is that they're Wrong, okay?

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them. Others are actively making the world a better place and creating things that actively fit in the world as a whole like it was intended. Others like one Ancient in a FATE sends us against a bunch of strong creations because he thinks we're a disposable familiar that happens to be strong and he wants to make something strong with no other purpose given. The only reason why you would need to create monsters to fill your ecosystem is because you've created monsters already and it becomes a sort of arms race in order to keep everything balanced. Elpis is also dangerous enough where it's been mentioned that Ancients have been injured or killed so it's not all sunshine and roses and then Pandaemonium, which is a league of its own.

Either way, I thought Elpis was much stronger on its characterizations of Ancients when it stepped away from the monster creating stuff, which ends up cheapening a lot of the pre-existing world anyway since it turns out a lot of the monsters we've encountered in the world and even possibly the Lupin just boil down to "a bored Ancient made it" instead of simply being a fantasy world full of monsters and it takes a bit of the sparkle out when stuff like this ends up getting explained.

The scariest thing about the Ancients overall that we learn later on in that whole arc isn't that they make this stuff, it's that they individually feel like they have the power and the right to make decisions for the whole planet and they they know best and that's how you get people like Hermes, Venat, and Emet-Selch.

I don't agree, simply for this question: why bring attention to it in the first place?

I'd like to think the writers are better than that considering all the destruction we've left behind that the existence of the Leatherworkers' Guild. I just figured it was there to introduce us to the concept of reducing creatures into aether, which comes up later, and to give us a reason to kill X amount of things.

[Brinne]

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them. Others are actively making the world a better place and creating things that actively fit in the world as a whole like it was intended. Others like one Ancient in a FATE sends us against a bunch of strong creations because he thinks we're a disposable familiar that happens to be strong and he wants to make something strong with no other purpose given. The only reason why you would need to create monsters to fill your ecosystem is because you've created monsters already and it becomes a sort of arms race in order to keep everything balanced. Elpis is also dangerous enough where it's been mentioned that Ancients have been injured or killed so it's not all sunshine and roses and then Pandaemonium, which is a league of its own.

That was Hythlodaeus, not Venat, for what it's worth!

Ecosystems are complicated, and again, the purpose of Elpis is to thoroughly test to see how a creation could fit into and contribute to an ecosystem. The Ancients are human, and therefore get excited about trendy stuff the way we modern humans get excited about trendy clothes or trendy food, and thus go on killing and/or colonizing sprees. This doesn't make them bad, it makes them people - and their society as a whole is responsible enough to recognize that and thus have a process to make sure as little harm as possible is done. Not to mention, even if you WANT to criticize the Ancients for stuff like that FATE series or the creation of Behemoth, that's immediately undermined because the Warrior of Light is happy to participate and help the Ancients in that process. "Hm, okay, I'll give this guy feedback about his predator creation to end up with a Meteor-slinging Behemoth. Also this guy is bad and wrong for making Behemoth (which I actively helped him with)."

Also, what you mentioned about "it's established that people are hurt and killed in Elpis" is yet another funny thing, because the story simultaneously tries to argue that the Ancients were selfish and spoiled because they didn't deal with hardship or being hurt. Except when they did. Ancients Are Wrong No Matter What continues to be the fundamental baseline.

Hell, not to mention, shouldn't we be cheering on the Ancients, given Endwalker's purported values, for creating a cycle of work that continues to necessitate other work? We don't want them to actually reach a state of a perfected, balanced ecosystem, become stagnant, and lose purpose, right? Wait, no, but that's bad too, wait--

The scariest thing about the Ancients overall that we learn later on in that whole arc isn't that they make this stuff, it's that they individually feel like they have the power and the right to make decisions for the whole planet and they they know best and that's how you get people like Hermes, Venat, and Emet-Selch.

Three individuals were like this - two of which are singled out for being extremely weird Ancients who felt dissonant from the values of most other Ancients, and the third who underwent an insane level of trauma that would be incomprehensible for basically any of us. Extrapolating three individuals all noted to be very unusual, or going through extreme circumstances, as reflecting an entire race of people immediately becomes problematic and ridiculous, especially because we see it demonstrated and repeated that as far as overt cultural values, trying to avoid arrogance and hubris is something they actually prioritize. And this is yet another thing that honestly just makes me go "man, wish we had what they have." Imagine if our humanity actually felt a similar sense of responsibility to collectively work for the good of mankind and for the planet as a whole. I might not be melting in this horrible summer heat and whining constantly at anyone who will listen about how The Sun Was A Mistake.

[CrownySuccubus]

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them.

More precisely, he mentioned that the were mass-produced for this reason. Not that this was their initial purpose. I suppose it's something like dogs originally being tamed by humans to make hunting and gathering easier, but now you can just own a little chihuahua that, unless you just want a yapping alarm, serves no purpose other than headpats and snuggles.

The scariest thing about the Ancients overall that we learn later on in that whole arc isn't that they make this stuff, it's that they individually feel like they have the power and the right to make decisions for the whole planet and they they know best and that's how you get people like Hermes, Venat, and Emet-Selch.

But, they kinda do have that right, though. Again, if you plan on living in any home or civilization larger than a tribe in a cave, people will need to make decisions for the environment. Want cooked food? Gotta learn how to safely make a fire that won't burn everything down for miles. Want to farm crops? Gotta learn how to do irrigation if you don't want to starve when it doesn't rain. Wanna not be eaten by bears? Gotta learn how to cut rocks and wood and other stuff into walls or weapons.

That's the essence of sapience. If you don't want your life to be at the random whims of nature, you have to learn how to control nature to a proportionate extent.

[Rulakir]

Of course, this didn't work out in practice for a number of reasons in both writing and presentation.

The writers made the WoL reincarnated Azem. I went into Elpis thinking, "Wow! These are were my BFFs and they're awesome, I love them so much!" Hythlodaeus' monologue about them as a trio got me right in the feels. (I thought the trio returning to the star together was beautiful.) Emet talking about Azem like a schoolboy with a crush was delightful. My being a "familiar" rarely crossed my mind except during times like these:



*gasp* Horrifying! :P

As for the creations, I'd be willing to wager that the amount of thought that went into it was, "Wouldn't it be cool if..?" I sincerely doubt they gave any consideration to the greater implications.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

Venat specifically mentions the sharks as being made because it became trendy, not because of the world actually needing them.

That was actually Hythlodaeus right when we encounter the landshark. Since he is the Chief of the Bureau and knows what's en vogue right now.

The thing also is, no matter how much of an apex predator and ultrastrong creature a creation is, at some point they will have to get a seal of approval from the Chief of the Bureau and if his first reaction to something is "Wtf is that, why" it gets filed away or right in the bin. It's really not as much of a problem as it appears to be since they do have processes in place to make sure nothing stupid gets released into the wild.

Meteion was only able to slip under the radar since Hermes is in charge of Elpis and can probably just make stuff there without prior approval of the Bureau. As Hythlodaeus says, he expects the paperwork to be handed in asap when he meets Meteion for the first time.

[Vyrerus]

I don't agree, simply for this question: why bring attention to it in the first place?

If we, the players, are not meant to see it as a big deal, what is the point of that quest objective and dialogue (aside from padding)? They could have easily had Hyth grab a couple of flowers with the same "aetheric resonances" or whatever, and make your robes that way. What purpose does having the player go out and weaken these pretty butterflies, have Hyth turn them into clothes, and then have the WOL comment on the process serve?

To me, the answer is obvious: to make the Ancients seem "less human". Even if we look at this from a less questionable standpoint of "The WOL was surprised they can do it so efficiently"....who cares? We've known since ShB that all of the Ancients have creation magicks. Even if the goal was to recap this for the players, they could have said, "Oh, that must be the creation magicks I've heard about." But the way the issue is raised in both questions (although, I'd love to see what the original Japanese wording was for the second option) makes it clear that the Ancients are very callous about how they use living things.

Especially given that they basically see the WOL as just a "more complicated" version of the petaloudai, it gives a very "They could do this to you, next" vibe.

The only real negative read I can get out of that scene is that Hythlodaeus realizes that the butterflies can harm you. Rather than Hythlodaeus purely being charitable, it reads like he's doing a miniature experiment to see if we're even worth the robes they're about to make (particularly when you remember/realize that his job is to judge concepts on final evaluations as head of the BotA).

The real real negative take is in Hyth's next dialogue where he says:

"Oh, it's fine, there's no one around to tell us off. And besides, we can always make more petaloudai. They need only a tiny amount of aether."

It's supposed to read like The Mysterious Stranger coming off as inhuman.



But honestly, even then, it's out of character for the WoL. And the context is all different. Like many attempts at depth in Endwalker, it misses the mark.

[Vyrerus]

The only reason why you would need to create monsters to fill your ecosystem is because you've created monsters already

Not necessarily. With such grand regard given to the ecosystem, and the fact that all creatures seem to be given aether manipulation, I think it speaks more to the idea that even the unsundered world had naturally occurring monsters.

In other words, there's no reason to create monsters if there weren't monsters first. There's a whole section of history we do not have, such as pre-paradise Amaurot. Perhaps monsters were made when they still had war, perhaps our progenitors' monsters were born of their own progenitors. So maybe they're just doing the best with what they were given.

[Teraq]

I heavy-breathe in awe when Brinne does her Brinne thing.

Ancients Are Wrong No Matter What continues to be the fundamental baseline.

Yyyyep. No way around it I'm afraid! And remember, when all else fails, there's always Dynamis, the good old Power Of God And Anime that simply does not apply to Ancients. Never mind that they could make Dynamis-capable creations, or that one has been right here in Elpis for centuries for anyone to study and refine – Endwalker just really, really wants you to know that ANCIENTS COULD NEVER WIN, SO DROP IT, PLEASE! They were too perfect so they deserved to die, but they were also not perfect enough so they did not deserve to be brought back. They never suffered (which is Very Bad), except when they routinely did, as evidenced by the numerous mentions of physical injury, the existence of the Seats of Azem, Pashtarot and Elidibus, and Lahabrea's joyous little family. Their collectivist and conformist society was very, very bad and no good, but Hermes and Venat's individuality clearly made them the poster boy and girl for Ancients, horrible people that they were, making individual judgment by their lonesome. And in this context, how could we forget that they took their most important official decisions as a council of fourteen wise people, whose debates apparently got heated enough they needed a dedicated mediator, which clearly indicates some sort of dystopian hivemind? The La Li Lu Le Lo...

Final Fantasy Fourteen Online: Endwalker: Ancients Are Wrong No Matter What: That Is Sophistry And You Know It™

By the way, I feel the need to mention that people in Elpis respect you, whom they believe to be a familiar, arcane entity without a soul, enough to ask you your opinion about funerary rites, and genuinely consider and appreciate your input. After Charmion makes you a cool smoothie so you don't dissipate.

Also, I will never ceased to be amused by people judging Ancients by nitpicking every single little flaw about their society, which indeed has points of contention to debate (which was their thing, remember?), but conveniently never compare them to the totally superior Sundered. Truly, all this suffering, misery, scarcity and violence due to fear of mortality, was worth it.

[Brinne]

Never forget the incident with the grapes where, prior to it being posted, the Ancients were obviously Bad and Hubristic for thinking they could Control Nature and Play God, but afterwards, they're Bad because they're too callous and hands-off and opt to not intervene in and control nature!

And then, you know, making creations and then killing them for your own purposes is horrible and bad and reflects a lack of respect for life, except for when Azem does it. When Azem Creates Ifrita for the sole purpose of killing it (to oppose the natural volcanic processes of the world, unable to accept loss, clearly), it's because Azem is clever and good and the Convocation are terrible cold-hearted jerks.

[CrownySuccubus]

Yeah, it's a general problem that can go unnoticed unless you're aware of the tell-tale sign of "seat of your pants writing".

Growing up reading comic books kind of trained me to notice when someone or something takes one moral stand or characterizes a character one way, and then does the opposite later when they think no one's looking. But when you're doing "SOYP writing", the only thing you're focusing on is "How can I make the audience feel what I want them to feel right at this moment?" So if your goal in writing is "Batman Is Always Right, No Matter What", you can have one story in which he beats up the Justice League for trying to play God, but then reveal that he has weapons of mass destruction stored under Wayne Manor "just in case" that get used to save the day, with no one calling him out for it because "Batman Is Always Right, No Matter What". (Or, insert any superhero here.)