Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[Iscah]

AST quests where a faction literally sent assassins?

Oh yeah, that too. The AST quests made Sharlayan seem like an absolute den of political scheming and underhanded villainy.

[Fayt1203]

Because it took place in the expansion about the end of the world.

But the world had not started to end at this part. In that staged we were still trying to find out the reason for the towers and trying stopping Fun daniel and Regina George plot that we did not have full understanding off.

then some people of Thavnair just found way to protect people from tempering and we took down one of the towers if that it's not worth celebrating then i dont know what is.i would believe that there where people partying all around thavnair after the tower fell

[VelKallor]

AST quests where a faction literally sent assassins?

One faction. A few small malcontents. Not the entire bloody NATION.

Or the countless times Matoya and Louisoix (both mentor characters and moral compasses) were said to disagree with their policies on major subjects?

Exactly how does two people disagreeing segue into an entire nations antagonism? it doesnt.

"Endless are the arguments of mages" - Lord of the Rings.

I actually think there was a fair bit of foreshadowing potential for Sharlayan to be antagonistic, and I do think it all got resolved a bit too... nicely? Un-dramatically? for how it had been set up. You had Fourchenault clearly keeping secrets, the Forum voting unanimously and suggesting some kind of cover-up or even mind control, which would suggest tempering. For all we knew in the lead-up, there could have been a primal in the heart of the city, or Hydaelyn's influence deliberately or accidentally influencing them to do "something" that would have been a hypothetical plot point.

and

It's incredibly disingenuous to claim they never have been antagonistic towards anyone.

Explained by Sharlayan emphasis on neutrality. They were isolationists by design. They were NOT tempered either, they were bound by a spell that forbade them from discussing certain topics..a spell they consented to.

There was even a cutscene to explain it. Sharlayan was NEVER antagonistic to anyone, they were isolationists dedicated to a specific ideal, and simply did not want to interact with outsiders.

"The problems of others are not our concern" - Minbari Grey Council, just before the Shadow War - Babylon 5

NOT the same thing.

[Iscah]

Explained by Sharlayan emphasis on neutrality. They were isolationists by design. They were NOT tempered either, they were bound by a spell that forbade them from discussing certain topics..a spell they consented to.

There was even a cutscene to explain it. Sharlayan was NEVER antagonistic to anyone, they were isolationists dedicated to a specific ideal, and simply did not want to interact with outsiders.

NOT the same thing.

I'm not saying it was the same thing. I'm talking about the difference between what we knew before Endwalker and the speculation extracted from those fragments of knowledge, compared to the truth behind them that we now know after playing it.

In our earlier stage of knowledge, there was a lot of potential for the truth to be something quite different to what it ultimately was, and I don't think what they did was the best story choice. (Much the same sentiment as I hold towards their final explanation of the Sundering, really.)

The thing I find most frustrating about these endless arguments over whether we should like the protagonists or not, is that I actually would like to have a conversation that starts from the angle "we're here because we like (or at least tolerate) the ongoing characters of this ongoing story; what do we think of the events that happened to them here?" – that's what I want to talk about when a new chapter of the story is released. Not have to debate (yet again with the same naysayers) whether the cast is acceptable in the first place.

(Edit to be clear: I enjoyed Endwalker as a whole but there are specific plot elements that I think were badly handled.)

[Kazhar]

...

So, all I get from you is that the only way a nation can be antagonistic towards others is to declare war and nothing else. Well, yes, they're pacifists, everyone gets that.
What made them potential antagonists is that their neutrality was clearly, multiple times, presented in the story as a severe lack of empathy at a cost of many people's lives. Had Sharlayan got their way, the Seventh's Calamity would have annihilated Eorzea entirely with no hope of recovery and they were fine with that. The Circle of Knowing, which is part of the Scions's DNA, was literally made in OPPOSITION to Sharlayan's policy.
And you say they weren't presented as antagonists at all?

[Graeham]

The tread make good point on the player want using the poll result from the ABeyond strawpoll internet page. There is the mistake think that the slice of life animu is too popular to the world but is not true. In west instead of the cartoon show the adult people read the grit war drama and the dark fantasy show. Funny thing is not tolerate when become the tradional man.

In war time can not eat the burger. The leader distribute the tincan food to the people to keep the money cost low. Is unrealistic for the pheasant to eat the gourmet quickfood. Only the czar can afford the western food. Theme of the expansion is about the feelsbadman and how it is not possible to reach the agree with the other. That is why we act out theme in the forum every day to remind the people like the Ultimate Thule.

The good story must follow the rule. In the Realm Born story say that the Zodark is the final boss but is not even midboss. In the Shadowbringer the King Solus and the Elidibus show that the Lightpower and the Venar and the Minifila is the real bad guy like in the Metal Gear. Only the suspicious player notice truth at start of game. And the Dadinaud is disown the Omega twin in trailer for playing dress up customize delivery so the Sharlyan country is bad too.

This is why the expert people in forum study main story in all the west language except for the raid story and the side story. The raid story too hard and the side story too boring so ok to skip. Also the Hildabrand will be rewrite so can skip the story too. Player should all listen to the expert because expert know better than the writer. It is because we live and post the story every day unlike writer who make story only night before homework due. When the story does not follow the expert predict it is the bad story.

The good point is make about the rewrite. We see now the entire story must be rewrite from the start for the west player not just the Endwalk. Will now be two story one for west and one for east like in the america Final Fantasy 2. Is very hard but love for game is strong so can do this. We will need much help from the story writer guild to complete the task. Player hear with the good suggestion idea only please post so we can make the full story. Please look forward to the tread.

[SentioftheHoukai]

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Eh, give it time. 'Tis still in the honeymoon phase. Still bathing in the morning afterglow of that sweet, sweet maternal love of our Mother in Crystal Hydaelyn. Personally, I'm of one mind with Aveyond that history will prove us right in the end insofar as Endwalker's critical reception is concerned. Now, I'm not here to change anyone's mind or opinion. Nay, my sole purpose her is to state my own. To be frank, I'm of the belief that in time (especially by the time 7.0 rolls around and we gain a new expansion to compare notes by) that Endwalker will likely have been looked at and will continue to be looked at more critically instead of the nigh hero worship of it we see at this particular temporal juncture. I hereby present this thread as evidence. Sure, 'tis old and musty from the year 2019 and yet I find it yet has lessons to teach us. Many of the accusations levied towards esteemed Emet-Selch in this work (before we were privy to the full grace of his characterization, his motives and his flaws) are as amusing as they are heartbreaking. Some are tragic, some absurd, some made me rage, some made me grieve. Nearly ALL can now also be laid at Venat's frosty ice-picks as well. I refer to this as evidence to how quickly the tables may turn, some of my associates are practically seers and seeresses for how accurate some of their statements came to pass. Nevertheless, as Lord Zodiark is my witness it is my sincere opinion that Endwalker's flaws shall be laid bare soon to come. Additionally, we're running out of time if any Scions at all are to be rendered exempt from this Void project of ours. I daresay we will take them all with us once we truly embark upon this endeavour, which puts to proof the idea that we ever 'disbanded' in the first place.

[MikkoAkure]

There was also a line of theorising on Sharlayan architecture's resemblance to the decor style of Anamnesis, and whether some kind of surviving Ancient (not necessarily Ascian-aligned) could be in control of the city.

We already saw the Sharlayan colony in Heavensward and it had the same architecture we see in Endwalker, which would have been to be expected. It would be strange to build gigantic vaults in a completely different style than your homeland. There’s nothing at all in the game to suggest anything about Ancient decor or Ancient-alignment except people were just throwing wild and crazy ideas out there for fun. Ahead of Endwalker, Yoshi-P even said in an interview that Sharlayan’s Endwalker design was based on player expectations from Heavensward.

The Sharlayan Colony wasn’t just some camp or research outpost, it was described in-game specifically separate from the Old World as having been counted among the 6 great city-states of Eorzea and was a center of learning and destination for all Eorzeans. The whole thing about hoarding knowledge must not have existed back then, which also means the AST quest Bibliotechs faction didn’t exist back then either or was much smaller.

Even after abandoning the colony, they didn’t stay out of Eorzean affairs and they rebuilt the realm’s aetheryte network after the Calamity, which doesn’t sound antagonistic to me.

And considering the importance of Sharlayan in the game’s history going back to the very beginning, I highly doubt they would have made it an end-game hub and given the full city over to Radz-at-Han. Considering the whole plot of the expansion was to be about the end of the world and how to stop it, it would make much more sense for it to mostly take place in the world’s center of learning where every single member of the Scions is from (minus tag-a-longs), than to put it in a random country which up until that point was only known for merchants and alchemists.

[Iscah]

We already saw the Sharlayan colony in Heavensward and it had the same architecture we see in Endwalker, which would have been to be expected.

Yes, but the comparison (being made before we saw Old Sharlayan in Endwalker) would have been, at the time, Sharlayan architecture as observed in Idyllshire and the Gubal Library.

The suggestion, as I recall it, was that Anamnesis and Idyllshire share similar architecture style and the colour scheme of white marble with gold and green accents. It wasn't a theory about what Old Sharlayan would look like, but and observation based on what we already knew. So hypothetically if that observation had significance, the resemblance between those two would not have any direct bearing on whether or not Old Sharlayan looks the same as Idyllshire, because of course those are likely to resemble each other. But at the same time it would strengthen the theme of all Sharlayan architecture echoing a style used by the Ancients.

I feel like you are missing my point. I am not talking about what we know now; I am talking about what we speculated back then.

[MikkoAkure]

So hypothetically if that observation had significance, the resemblance between those two would not have any direct bearing on whether or not Old Sharlayan looks the same as Idyllshire, because of course those are likely to resemble each other. But at the same time it would strengthen the theme of all Sharlayan architecture echoing a style used by the Ancients.

I feel like you are missing my point. I am not talking about what we know now; I am talking about what we speculated back then.

That’s a lot of “potentially” and “what-if”. I just see the colors as a greater part of visual storytelling than anything to do with conspiracy theories about Sharlayan origins and cork boards with pictures connected by string.

Both Anamnesis and Gubal are abandoned magical libraries that look similar and have jazzy soundtracks with enemies being summoned out of their own society’s equivalent of books and were originally home to a scholarly non-interventionist people. I saw them as parallels and the style of one dungeon reflecting the other to establish that, but parallels don’t necessarily mean a true connection.

It’s just like how Anamnesis’s theme also borrows heavily on Sastasha’s theme because both have to do with Sahagin/Ondo. The developers are designing things to help us make connections in our head but that doesn’t necessarily mean “Sharlayan is ruled or influenced by an Ancient” and reading too into things and letting your hypotheticals grow wild out of check is how you end up being disappointed with the result.