Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[aveyond-dreams]

Endwalker, among many things, could have delivered more in terms of the main cast’s development. Now as we move forward into Season 2 it appears that this 10-year old party isn’t going away anytime soon and it is only a matter of time before the remaining Scions are recruited. Looking back, there was another, more effective party of heroes that made for better storytelling than the Scions by way of their character arcs and diverse characteristics within this same game. The Warriors of Light from the First, Ardbert’s Party, who became the Warriors of Darkness. The goal of this post is to provide some comparison and analysis between the two parties.



The difference here is immediately apparent. Already at a glance you have in Ardbert’s party a variety of characters of different origins and looks that can appeal to a wider swathe of people than...mostly elves and white haired Sharlayans. Enduring the Scions for 10 years is already a significant commitment, but to carry them forward into the next decade of FFXIV in their current trajectory may not be the best solution. The simple fact of the matter is that a cast of characters that looks and thinks the same that doesn’t make sufficient progress in terms of their respective arcs will not create an immersive story experience. Alphinaud in particular has learned and failed to apply the same lessons about statecraft time and time again, and the cast has been granted plot armor too impenetrable that it regularly annuls the sacrifices they make.

I will pre-emptively address the concern that new players have about losing out on the future of these characters by asking them to reflect upon what it would’ve been like to witness the story spread out over the years like us veteran players have. How would you feel if after several years since you first saw Alphinaud be humbled and learn to manoeuvre affairs of state better that he is still making the same mistakes of being too trusting and getting himself and others into dangerous situations? Apply this concept to other characters and perhaps you will begin to understand our perspective. A new player’s playthrough of this game is an entirely different experience than going through the story as it was released.

In any case, here is how the Scions compare to the Warriors of Darkness. This will mostly draw from information from the role quests of Shadowbringers. Most if not all spoilers are contained within their respective tags.


The Devout of Darkness

Lamitt, the first of Ardbert’s companions, set out in search of a cure for the Stoneblight affecting her people and her sister. Already from her first few lines (in the role quest) we can see that she has somewhat of a sense of humour – and was quick to snap back at Ardbert when he mistook her for a man in this introductory scene. It was natural given what was going on, and felt far more organic than recent attempts at humour in the MSQ like the burger scene or Y’shtola’s magical girl moment in 6.1. From the beginning she is established as endearing – not snobbish in the same way as the twins. Her story revolves around rebelling against and overcoming the stifling traditions of the dwarves in the name of the greater good, and while she was successful, she ended up having to face the consequences of her actions.

In stark comparison to Alphinaud, Lamitt did not enjoy the comfort of support when she left her community. Instead, she faced ostracization, rejection, and ultimately was never truly forgiven for her actions regardless of how benevolent they were and how much she helped her people. Compared to Alphinaud’s “struggle,” most of which is born from his own lack of political talent than truly pressing stakes, Lamitt is far easier to root for. Alphinaud definitely had the chance to show resolve and defiance in Sharlayan in a tense environment – perhaps by stealing away his father’s nouliths and battle robes instead of them literally being given to him by his mother. Who do you really want to see on screen, a character who works for their triumphs or one who has them simply fall into their lap? Of course, in real life we would be lucky to have the privilege of being the latter, but when it comes to a video game this doesn’t exactly make for very exciting storytelling.

The Magus of Darkness

Nyelbert was recruited by Ardbert’s party later on, though his tale begins when he was far younger. Having lost his best friend Taynor to a Hollow during their magic training, he resolved to find a way to bring him back ever since. This experience had a strong impact on him, though it isn’t readily apparent given his aloof and arrogant personality. This polarizes the player against him, especially when Ardbert has to haggle and negotiate for his cooperation. Not every party member has to merely go along with the protagonist’s wishes without pushback, and that’s ok. Conflict and disagreements among party members isn’t a foreign concept, and neither is the dynamic of two party members who simply don’t get along. However, upon finding the crystal that would’ve given him the power to save Taynor, it is revealed that its removal would cause the collapse of the mountain and the destruction of the surrounding towns. In response, he decries the cruelty of his circumstance and shatters the crystal, letting his façade drop at last. This act robs him of the means to rescue his friend, but prevents disaster from striking far more people.

Even after this pivotal moment, rather than the nebulous “forge ahead” trope that the scions appeared to collectively adopt, what makes his character unique is his unwavering loyalty to his mission of bringing Taynor back. He questions and considers what would happen had he chosen differently, selfishly dreaming of the adventures he and Taynor would’ve had if he had been able to save him. Harbouring such guilt and remorse, despite how comparatively difficult it is to connect with this character, he at least has more depth to him than Y’shtola, whose use of forbidden magic has been repeatedly excused in the story by way of fakeouts amounting to at least one per expansion. She does not pay for her mistakes in the way that Nyelbert was forced to, nor is she pressured into making such critical decisions – her throwing the poison antidote to the WoL in Shadowbringers at the cost of her life was almost immediately stripped of emotional weight after Emet-Selch brought her back 5 minutes later. To my knowledge she has never engaged in the sort of introspection that Nyelbert offers us in his monologue after the defeat of his sin eater, perhaps if she did, along with facing some manner of lasting consequences for her actions, there would not be so many calls to replace her as the game’s postergirl and retire her from the cast.

The Ranger of Darkness

Renda-Rae, as with the rest of Ardbert’s party, comes from a different region and has her own unique story of being a bounty hunter with a party that preceded Ardbert’s. However, they were slain in their attempt to take down a particularly powerful mark. Another important factor is that in this case the game exhibited a rare use of making the character’s race relevant to the scene by working in the limitation of her sensitive ears. Nevertheless, the pain of this loss stayed with her and influenced her decision to attempt to take down the mark on her own again because she could not bear to lose her new party the same way. This was an act of selflessness in a world without Seedseers to pull people out of the Lifestream or Porxies to undo mind-control, she took a risk fully prepared to deal with the permanent consequences. Ardbert later called her out on this, paving the way for some thematically appropriate humour and a bit of the party members bouncing off each other. Again, natural and on point. Party members had a disagreement, and the humour used didn’t take us out of the fantasy, it strengthened it.

Alisae, in comparison, has indeed experienced traumatic losses in her adventures, with Tesleen being the most prominent. Louisoix happened so long ago that it barely affects her or Alphinaud. However, unlike Renda-Rae Alisae does later get her hands on the magic gizmo that undoes previous mistakes and cures tempering, taking away a means for permanent consequences to be inflicted on other characters. She also does not go through a period where she hesitates before letting people too close to her heart in the same way Renda-Rae did, instead in Endwalker she becomes increasingly vocal about the WoL taking care of themselves. After a while, this became grating and did not need to be as pushed with as much force as it was, especially when it would have better served her character to take more action-based risks or something of the sort. Alisae is definitely a character that is easier to like than most of the scions, but even she is starting to wear on people’s patience.

The Knight of Darkness

Branden, in contrast to the other party members, hails from the far-off kingdom of Voeburt. Though at the start of his arc he is still an inexperienced knight, he finds himself in the midst of an intriguing mystery that weaves together magic and a bit of politics via Court Mage Tadric’s scheme to take the throne. Though not apparent at the time, Branden’s fall from grace was orchestrated by Tadric himself. This calls to mind the scenario of Ashley Riot, the protagonist from Vagrant Story who for a time believed himself to be a similarly disgraced knight, but his story had a lot more depth and revelations to it than Branden’s. Nevertheless, both Branden (and Ashley’s) disgrace appears to arise from an incident in which they failed as a protector. Given that there is no way to reverse Tadric’s transformation curse, the stakes are decently high.

His story also hints at the use of romance as a plot element when it comes to his relationship with Princess Sauldia, which makes the pain of his next failure all the more painful to bear. In failing to defend her once more, she succumbed to Tadric’s curse and, having at last grasped the importance of balancing decisive action and mercy, Branden was forced to slay her himself. Like in the other cases in Ardbert’s party, in having to make a crucial choice that leads to growth the player is able to sympathize with the character more. Branden however, unlike Thancred, is not so stoic and expressed his sorrow in the immediate aftermath with a closeup of tears glistening in his eyes – this struck an excellent balance when it comes to a masculine way in which such grief might be handled when surrounded by other people. Thancred in comparison barely had a reaction when it was revealed that Ryne would be left behind if the Loporrit’s plot to use the Moon as an Ark went ahead, the fact that some players tried to justify that as character growth was very confusing to me. Whether as a potential lover in the case of Branden or father figure with Thancred, an invested protector should not be so unemotional when presented with such trying situations. To be clear, I do not want nor do I expect to see the shields of the party bawling theatrically, the ideal balance was already demonstrated in Branden’s scene.

Some other quirks of note include Branden’s excessive drinking and his gossiping with Nyelbert behind Ardbert’s back, again small characteristics that add to the party’s dynamics and makes them feel more like people. These things didn’t go away or were rectified in an attempt to show the character maturing, they were flaws and it is perfectly fine to have them. Thancred by consequence would feel just that much more alive if he kept some of his original habits like being a ladies’ man, instead of having that aspect of his character completely erased even now that he is free of any charges to take care of.

The Rival – Final Role Quest Spoilers

Cylva, the 6th member of Ardbert’s party arguably serves the most important role of all, that of their rival and true antagonist at the heart of all the world’s woes. Betrayal by party members in RPGs is not uncommon, and I imagine that were this a single player game that such a betrayal would have played out quite nicely. As opposed to how rushed the antagonists of Endwalker were, Cylva in being a party member would have allowed the player to grow closer and sympathize with her prior to the shock reveal, making for a more impactful climax and payoff.

No such party member turned traitor exists in this game, I certainly would not ascribe this role to Estinien given he was not acting under his own mind during the Heavensward patches and was being controlled by another entity. Cylva does not have her agency stolen from her in this manner. Forced into an impossible situation, she chose to act the way she did and, with no gizmo or power of friendship to save her, had to live with the consequences of those actions. They were not invalidated or brushed away, and certainly not justified in the same manner that Endwalker attempted to do for its antagonists by way of its theme of “forging ahead.” If anything, Ardbert’s party teaches us that there are some things worth holding on to even as we carry on through bitter struggles, and this was accomplished in a far shorter amount of time and in a more effective manner.

The following are some other closing thoughts that didn’t really fit anywhere else, and touch on more general subjects outside of specific characters.

The fact that there have been players who have said to me that it is unrealistic for party members to have conflicts between themselves if they’ve known each other for a long time simply does not make sense. It is perfectly natural for party members in RPGs to disagree with each other on a variety of issues. It adds a layer of depth to the relationships between characters that separates them from the cookie-cutter variety. Shouldn’t effective storytelling try to incorporate this to a more meaningful degree, as opposed to relying on singular “sassy” quotes from Y’shtola every now and then? This is why the dynamic that Ysayle and Estinien had worked so well, over the course of their arguments they provided both entertainment value and developed their characters further. This does not happen with the current cast. There are few moral issues, if any, that they disagree on and it only contributes to the feeling of sameness amongst these characters.

At any rate, given the themes presented in Endwalker that went on to promote the suffering of mankind as necessary and critical for one to grow resilient – this theme falls flat when the party is largely from a privileged background and have suffered little in comparison to other characters, especially when compared to Ardbert’s party. The sole exception to this would be Estinien, being both a victim and participant of the Dragonsong War with his earlier years briefly described here. Our other remaining party members have either had their moment of loss so many years ago that it no loner resonates with long-term players (the twins and their grandfather, Urianger and Moenbryda), have been associated with widely disliked characters (Minfilia), or have had their sacrifices over the course of the game invalidated or have no bearing on the plot (Y’shtola’s blindness and fakeouts, G’raha Tia’s survival).

It is extremely important to re-examine the storytelling techniques used and choices made in their characterization so far, especially if this game is to honour its promise of delivering a Season 2, all while retaining its reputation as the MMORPG with the greatest story. Since FFXIV also wants to present itself as a single player game to some degree as well, its story and therefore its handling of characters must be able to stand on even ground with other single player titles too.

[CrownySuccubus]

Oh look, another "find any means whatsoever to dunk on the Scions" thread...

The fact that there have been players who have said to me that it is unrealistic for party members to have conflicts between themselves if they’ve known each other for a long time simply does not make sense. It is perfectly natural for party members in RPGs to disagree with each other on a variety of issues.

Nobody told you this. What was said was:

Except you and Theodric aren't talking about merely "disagreeing" with each other. I specifically brought up the fact that the Scion's don't see eye-to-eye earlier and it was dismissed as "surface level". You guys are talking about flat out opposing each other on moral and philosophical terms, and that is NOT something "friends" typically do. As I mentioned before, even your "better" example of FFIX ends with three people who outright hated Zidane at the start (Steiner, Amarant and Garnet) becoming such good friends that they all risk their lives to rescue him on Pandemonium. Garnet and Steiner wind up falling in love with him and fully supporting said love, respectively, by the end of the game. Furthermore, the end of the game has the survivors of Burmecia, Lindblum, Cleyra, Alexandria and other kingdoms all becoming allied forces under a banner of friendship.

I've had friends for over 20 years and we either agree to disagree if we can't come to a consensus or we respectfully debate about things. Because we're friends and we want to stay that way. We've also been friends long enough that we know how to talk to each other. So I don't find the behavior of the Scions nonsensical at all.

We're also friends who've played D&D for years and we realize that even in a party with mixed alignment that Chaotic Evil murderhobo is probably not going to be conducive to us getting anything done. I love Fordola as a character and we've made our peace through the latest healer role quest, but she would have been far too devisive to travel with us before the point she's at now. Too much conflict just makes the story stagnate and that's not any fun.

My close friends I've know for 10+ years and the last time we had any issues was in middle school more than 7 years ago. Sorry but while possible, if you're going through turmoil as you put it with folks you've known for a substantial amount of time you need new friends.

As stated above, there are numerous times when the Scions disagree with each other, but learn to work out said differences and come to an ideological consensus. The same is true of Ardbert's group. For example, in the DPS Role Quest where Renda runs off on her own to face her prey, and almost falls in the process. But, who is it that comes to her rescue and saves her, with an "all for one and one for all" ideology? Ardbert and the others. When Cylva betrays the team and demands that Ardbert kill her for it, Ardbert chooses NOT to do it, because they're friends. That's something your "breakdown" completely skips over -- while Cylva did betray the team, this was due to a plan that was in place before she joined them, and in the end, she came to love and respect them as friends, and vice-versa. Her "betrayal" is something that Cylva felt guilt over, sure, but her friends had forgiven her for it LONG ago.

The Warriors of Darkness were just as close and unified as the Scions are. They had "surface level" disagreements and conflict at points in the story, but by the end, they're basically family. In fact, that's the entire POINT of the Role Quests.

In addition, the fact that the Warriors of Darkness are tragic figures does not thus invalidate the more uplifting portrayal of the Scions. The entire purpose of a group like the WoDs is to act as an abject lesson of "How can we prevent something like this from happening again?". The argument that the Scions need to suffer as much to be valid characters is like claiming that Robin needs to watch Batman be shot in an alley, just like Bruce did, or else Dick Grayson isn't a good character.

[Graeham]

We agree with the post.

The Tv trope website teach how to do the 5 man group they must have the leader character, the big man, the woman, the smart man, and the rival. Is need for the good writing.

Team with the hero and the villain all in the same party it make for the exciting storytelling for everyone betray each other. Then the leader must fight the final boss on the own because everyone dead or left the party. It is more dramatic. Otherwise is unfair fight. Friendship story is boring.

Ardbert team start out with all agree and all friend in Heavensward but all disagree and are different by the Shadowbringers. Shows the group has more of the conflict in late story. Is good story telling.

We do not like how Ardbert spare Cylva and they friends after and team up to kill Ascians. Should continue to fight and kill each other like Ascians original plan. Is hard to believe. Also should team with the Garlemald, the Ascian, and the Monarch to make diverse.

[Iscah]

[I]*Season two of..what exactly?

Season 2 is Yoshida's phrasing – the idea that the Hydaelyn and Zodiark saga was "Season 1" of FFXIV's storyline and we're now moving into a new phase of the story. It's not yet clear how this will work on a large scale, and whether that will involve another multi-expansion plotline.

Personally I am expecting 6.X to be something of an interim storyline and 7.0 to be a new recommended launching point for people who don't want to play all the way from the beginning but still want to get into the story.

The Tv trope website teach how to...

TV Tropes is an observation of how people tend to write stories, not an instruction manual.

[SnowVix]

The Tv trope website teach how to do the 5 man group they must have the leader character, the big man, the woman, the smart man, and the rival. Is need for the good writing.

TV Tropes was a mistake. It is not a writing textbook, nor a course, nor a mandatory element. Please, for the love of good writing, take an actual writing course instead of treating TV Tropes as your Bible.

[Graeham]

TV Tropes was a mistake. It is not a writing textbook

We know that the tvtrop is not peer review like the wikipedia so must be careful. But is still the good guide to teach the correct writing. The lackluster story writer guild team use this all the time as reference to write the fiction for the forum player along with end season of the Game of the Thrones and the Mass Effect Andromeda.

Rulerkir from writers guild makes the good point. If we write the lines for the chara you can tell them your emotion. Like when King Solus asks the question in the Elpis past we can say 'Vanar is the bad guy' or 'I lov the Emperor'. And then the game can change to give you the very secret good ending where the Eorzea die and is replaced by the Ascian God chara. And because we are now God chara like Ascian the lackluster story writers guild can finally do the very hard fight like the Extreme primal to see what happen in there and see if any story change is needed. Is unfair that the story is gait behind the raid because is harder to fix story if we can not see it.

[SnowVix]

We know that the tvtrop is not peer review like the wikipedia so must be careful. But is still the good guide to teach the correct writing. The lackluster story writer guild team use this all the time as reference to write the fiction for the forum player along with end season of the Game of the Thrones and the Mass Effect Andromeda.

TVTropes is literally not a teaching site. Seriously, take a real writing course and stop trying to treat TVTropes as something it isn't, and as something it, itself does not claim to be.

[VelKallor]

Alphinaud in particular has learned and failed to apply the same lessons about statecraft time and time again,

*Takes a look at the last 100 years of human history and starts laughing hysterically*

Want a list of the same kind of failings? Like the ones that started not one, but two world wars?

How would you feel if after several years since you first saw Alphinaud be humbled and learn to manoeuvre affairs of state better that he is still making the same mistakes of being too trusting and getting himself and others into dangerous situations?

The ENTIRE PLANET was under threat.

there would not be so many calls to replace her as the game’s postergirl and retire her from the cast.

Says WHO? To date I have not heard this said ANYWHERE.

t. Louisoix happened so long ago that it barely affects her or Alphinaud

She misses him every single day, he is her hero when it comes to commitment and sacrifice. His legacy is what drives her.

They were not invalidated or brushed away, and certainly not justified in the same manner that Endwalker attempted to do for its antagonists by way of its theme of “forging ahead.” I

As has been said earlier, if you tie the themes in Endwalker to what we have just endured over the last two damned years ( over seven MILLION dead worldwide and the entire planet thrown into chaos ), "forge ahead" is exactly what needs to be in the forefront of our minds. We cannot live with constant fear, we cannot hide from tomorrow, we MUST find a path forward.

As we did after every disaster, every catastrophe, every terrible conflict, we must forge ahead. We mourn, we grieve, but we do NOT let that despair rule our lives and destroy what chance we have for tomorrow.....it will come whether we want it to or not.

How we face that sunrise defines who and what we are...who and what we may become.

Highly appropriate...........wouldnt you say?

widely disliked characters (Minfilia)

Wut?? Disliked BY WHO? I am again yet to see anyone say this...there is a running joke about the Waking Sands, but thats not what you are on about. Exactly who dislikes Minfilia?

We agree with the post.

Um....who is "we?" I dont agree at all...so no, "we" dont.

We do not like how Ardbert spare Cylva and they friends after and team up to kill Ascians

..for whom do you speak?

Not me, not anyone here so...explain....who is 'we'?

"Our" perspective?

I think not.

Now as we move forward into Season 2

Season two of..what exactly?

[Rulakir]

They could have done more with Scions this time and just... didn't. How about exploring Thancred's (and I suppose Urianger too) emotional turmoil about Ryne outside of a couple of grimaces? How about G'raha struggling with leaving the supposedly hopeless 8UC timeline to theoretically die only for the future he thought he saved potentially being worse (not to mention Lyna)? How about Ryne having more of a reaction to the impending death of their shard after thinking their world had been saved? How about Y'shtola showing any concern for Runar? (I don't recall her mentioning him once despite her life's mission supposedly being how to get back to him.) I could go on and on about deep, emotional themes and character development they could have delved into that were either ignored or glossed over a unbelievable amount.

As for Scions vs. WoDs, this unfortunately goes back to the WoL being recruited at level 15 to join the Scions. Unlike Ardbert where it appears he amassed his companions in a more organic way, the WoL turned out to be the token member of the Sharlayan club. We generally don't get to keep the friends we make along the way for every reason in the book from death to the person being a city leader. Meanwhile, the Scions never die so there's no membership turnover either.

I agree that HW is more what I wanted and what I'm used to out of an RPG experience. Meeting people of diverse backgrounds and goals along the way who we join up with for one quest that continually unfolds into a grander scheme. Instead, the Scions have a collective objective and the WoL is on board with whatever that is. Given that Ishikawa was writing this, I wish that the DRK themes had come into play of the WoL asking themselves if doing whatever the Scions want them to do is always the right thing. I felt particularly with their history as Azem, obvious fondness for Emet & Hyth, and time spent in the unsundered world that EW would've been the time to address that and, instead, we got even less dialog options and the WoL regressing back to lobotomized ARR, nodding approvingly at everything.

Hindsight's 20/20, but I think the big mistake here was having the 'hero' join an organization. The Scions should've been side content like a hunter's guild. Aside from, again, HW, the WoL is on rails with whatever the Scions are doing and as a result with few exceptions (like Elpis) the WoL rarely feels like they're having their own adventure or pursuing their own desires. I don't see how this is fixed without somehow divorcing the WoL from the Scions, which is something else they had ample opportunity to do after 6.0 and just... didn't.

As has been said earlier, if you tie the themes in Endwalker to what we have just endured over the last two damned years ( over seven MILLION dead worldwide and the entire planet thrown into chaos ), "forge ahead" is exactly what needs to be in the forefront of our minds. We cannot live with constant fear, we cannot hide from tomorrow, we MUST find a path forward.

Thanks for the reminder why EW sucked. Instead of a good story, we got platitudes combined with suffering fetishism.

[Carin-Eri]

As for Scions vs. WoDs, this unfortunately goes back to the WoL being recruited at level 15 to join the Scions. Unlike Ardbert where it appears he amassed his companions in a more organic way, the WoL turned out to be the token member of the Sharlayan club. We generally don't get to keep the friends we make along the way for every reason in the book from death to the person being a city leader. Meanwhile, the Scions never die so there's no membership turnover either.

Wasn't that supposed to be the point though?

As you say, Ardbert apparently amassed his companions.
Whereas the WoL was an Adventurer at heart, as Zenos (of all people) pointed out, and (at least initally) just sorta went along with what was happening around them.