Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

That still doesn’t justify why they were eating burgers of all things nor was i particularly impressed with the Elpis flower’s use in the story. I don’t care how much “hope” these characters have in the face of despair when they haven’t exactly been through very much especially after some of their character growth has outright regressed such as in the case of G’raha Tia.

Why are you so hung up on them eating burgers?

Why is it hard to believe they would have them? Did you want the scene to having them eating soup?

I just don't get why it's such a big deal.

[CrownySuccubus]

That still doesn’t justify why they were eating burgers of all things nor was i particularly impressed with the Elpis flower’s use in the story. I don’t care how much “hope” these characters have in the face of despair when they haven’t exactly been through very much especially after some of their character growth has outright regressed such as in the case of G’raha Tia.

Again, calling BS on the "haven't been through much" argument. The Scions have spent years trying to help people in need, often dealing with tragedy, war, death and despair directly. Comparing them to people who work in medical professions, military, social work, and rescue occupation -- no matter how big their bank account or house is -- it's kind of a scummy thing to do to lecture them about suffering. People IRL can and DO develop real PTSD from things like watching their charges deal with abuse or neglect, watching a patient die despite every effort to save them, or trying and failing to rescue someone from a life-threatening situation.

If a firefighter is grieving because they tried and failed to save a little girl from a burning building, I'd LOVE to watch someone walk up and say, "Oh come on, they haven't been through much."

[Graeham]

I just don't get why it's such a big deal.

Is important to eat the balanced diet with the 5 groups. The cheesieburger does not have much of the fibre and is bad for the Scion if eat too much. But the food is not all. Must do the 100 push up and the 100 sit up and the 100 squat and the 10 malm run. All the single day. This is why the Grahad is not strongman compared to the Brandon forum knight of darkness. So when the God Meteo casted the wind spell he blow away because he skipping the leg day. The Brandon would not make the new player mistake when use the Past Arms.

[Rulakir]

I'd love it if they showed any emotional and psychological consequences from the experiences the Scions have been through. As it is, the most PTSD we see is the WoL's aversion to accepting drinks from strangers.

It's one of the reasons I liked Lyna so much, because she has a full on breakdown after Eulmore attacks Lakeland. She's torn up at anything that involves the Exarch. I would love to see more vulnerability. The only Scion I feel we get that from is Alisaie and even that's limited. (I liked her snapping at Ryne when the WoL was on their way to becoming a sin eater and hers was one of the only UT segments I liked.)

[CrownySuccubus]

I'd love it if they showed any emotional and psychological consequences from the experiences the Scions have been through. As it is, the most PTSD we see is the WoL's aversion to accepting drinks from strangers.

It's one of the reasons I liked Lyna so much, because she has a full on breakdown after Eulmore attacks Lakeland. She's torn up at anything that involves the Exarch. I would love to see more vulnerability. The only Scion I feel we get that from is Alisaie and even that's limited. (I liked her snapping at Ryne when the WoL was on their way to becoming a sin eater and hers was one of the only UT segments I liked.)

Alphinaud still talks about his scars about the failure involving the Crystal Braves.

Estinien has spent several expansions trying to get over his anger at dragons for the deaths of his family.

G'raha talks about how painful it was to leave Lyna, whom he raised as a granddaughter behind, and mourns his friends from the 8UC timeline, and I'm pretty sure I've also heard him mourn people who died during the Crystal Tower questline.

Thancred spent all of SB and most of ShB mourning Minfilia, to the point that looking at Ryne brought him pain that even she noticed, and made her even consider sacrificing herself so he could have Minfilia back.

Urianger literally broke down crying in EW over Moenbryda and full on states that he couldn't even bring himself to talk to her parents because of the guilt he felt for her death.

The only one I'm drawing a blank on at the moment is Y'shtola.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

That still doesn’t justify why they were eating burgers of all things

The Burger Hate. Just, Omg the Burger Hate.
The hatred of a character eating a Hamburger is the Funniest thing ever on these Forums.

[Rulakir]

Estinien and G'raha are the only two I give a pass, they have survived some horrific experiences. (Though, G'raha seems to be having the time of his life now and I wasn't pleased with how Estinien was handled in EW.)

I know I'm going to regret this, but... -_-

Minfilia chose to die due to her zealotry towards Hydaelyn and, as far as I'm concerned, that ruined Thancred's character. His moping about her ever since was a detriment to his development. I thought he was an absolute jerk throughout ShB and felt so bad for Ryne until Minfila was finally gone-gone (and hopefully stays that way). I realize I'm one of the few who hated Thancred's ShB arc, but I genuinely thought it was terrible because I loved ARR/HW Thancred and they keep doing him dirty by having him so wrapped up in Minfilia.

I admit I do not care about Urianger at all. I feel Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves were already dealt with appropriately back in HW. His referencing past life lessons isn't what I'm talking about. Y'shtola, I got nothing either, even her "blindness" turned into a superpower.

I overall felt characters were better handled back in HW, which was coincidentally the last time there were consequences for anyone not an antagonist. Ysayle is another great example.

[Brinne]

Incidentally, Y'shtola is the one who immediately comes to mind when I mentioned "there are some Scions I dislike"! Funny, that.

Most of the others I'd say I like or am at least generally okay with. EW mishandling them was a combination of a) not quite gelling on how to make them interesting as a group and b) trying to retroactively apply a theme to the past story arcs where it wasn't intended, so the attempt at piecing together the picture of "enduring suffering" based on older expansions (rather than working it in meaningfully for the main cast in the present, they act like the work was already purposefully done) feels pretty haphazard. It's trying to very confidently cash a check written, at best, sort of sloppily and partially by weird accident.

But that's something I lay at the feet of EW's very weird (read: bad) thematic work rather than the Scions themselves. Almost no one escaped EW's Themes unscathed, honestly, including some of my top faves.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

And they were not exactly passive in their neutrality as they actively tried to prevent their people to intervene in the Garlean invasion, despite the horrible implications it had.

Thats...exactly what Neutrality is. They didnt want to get involved.
Implications or not, they stayed in their lane and didnt take either side.

I see no contradiction, as the story unambiguously presented said neutrality as a bad thing that needed to change, and which the Circle of Knowing acted directly in opposition of. The source of the conflict between Louisoix and Fourchenault was that neutrality, in the former's view, made Sharlayan indolent and wouldn't lead to progress.

How are they not an antagonist force when they were, at the root of the entire story, obstacles to the protagonists plans? Again The Circle of Knowing, which half the protagonists are coming from, was created to act against Sharlayan's policy. This is the textbook definition of being an antagonist.

Ok so if we just go by the actual Definition of Antagonist..then sure I concede; Sharlayn does have a Conflicting interest.
But typically in story-telling that word is used to describe a Villain, which Sharlayn was not. Even Fourchenault wasnt really a Villain.
The Sharlyans knew things we didnt, and were operating on a "World Saving" project behind the scenes. Their whole operation was on Knowledge and preserving it. And they didnt want to do anything that could destroy that, such as taking a side and participating in the battles and politics outside of their Island. Of course, like anything and everything, there will be outliers of different beliefs, such as Louisoix and his followers

So I guess using the definition Sharlayn was Antagonistic towards the Scions.
But were not Antagonists in itself. They weren't a Villain.

[CrownySuccubus]

Minfilia chose to die due to her zealotry towards Hydaelyn and, as far as I'm concerned, that ruined Thancred's character. His moping about her ever since was a detriment to his development.

I admit I do not care about Urianger at all. I feel Alphinaud and the Crystal Braves were already dealt with appropriately back in HW. His referencing past life lessons isn't what I'm talking about.

It sounds like we've moved the goalposts from, "The Scions should show trauma and emotion" to "They aren't showing trauma and emotions in ways that I like"...in which case, I can only shrug because that's a personal take. Personally, I was describing Thancred's dilemma about Minfilia and Ryne to some friends as they watched me play, and they thought it was the highlight of Shadowbringers. They were really sold on the prospect of losing someone you love, only to find a "reincarnation" of them that still has your old loved one trapped inside. They liked it so much that a couple asked me how it resolved later on, after I beat 5.0, and they were pleased with the development. But that's my personal anecdote.

So yeah, we've moved into heavily subjective territory. You're welcome to feel how you like, but it definitely doesn't seem to be any sort of universal take.