Do we really need two healers per alliance in 24 mans?

[pinkbubblegum]

What is meant to be fun in this game?

Playing content with friends ofc
Doing MSQ the first time and seeing all the dungeons blind? Dang fun. Running stuff with friends who only now started playing? Also fun!

Meeting all these people in DF or PF who are nice and silly and kind 10/10 xD

I care that healers are outdated, boring messes of a role that have disjointed toolkits that are oversaturated to the 9s with redundant healing abilities that are not needed in 90% of content.

But like with how toolkits work, if you need that for 10% of content, you're gonna be able to have access to it regardless if you're gonna be doing that 10% of content or not... And asking them to make content in the 90% that will get tied to Roulettes harder defeats the purpose of having them be in Roulettes.

[Semirhage]

Playing content with friends ofc
Doing MSQ the first time and seeing all the dungeons blind? Dang fun. Running stuff with friends who only now started playing? Also fun!

Meeting all these people in DF or PF who are nice and silly and kind 10/10 xD



But like with how toolkits work, if you need that for 10% of content, you're gonna be able to have access to it regardless if you're gonna be doing that 10% of content or not... And asking them to make content in the 90% that will get tied to Roulettes harder defeats the purpose of having them be in Roulettes.

All of those things DPS mains get to do while not spending 90% of their time pressing 1111111111111111111.

[pinkbubblegum]

All of those things DPS mains get to do while not spending 90% of their time pressing 1111111111111111111.

Honestly, I have no real strong opinions about the state of healer DPS skills. I'm even a fan that they made all healers able to weave on almost all dps spells now. I just play whatever the game gives me... If they add combos in the future, I'll play that too. Whatever honestly.

Cure 3, Medica, Afflatus Rapture, Medica 2, Lilybell. WHY TF DO I NEED 5 AOE HEALS? 6 if you want to count Assize.
Why do I need PI, Temperance and Asylum to boost my Healing potency?
Why do I need Cure 2, Afflatus Solace, Tetra and Benediction for ST healing? Throw Cure 1 in if you want to get technical about it.

Damn... They're all different though... And even spells of similar heal potency like Medica and Afflatus Rapture have Afflatus being tied to a resource so in the event of death, you won't have access to it immediately upon res so you at least other ogcds not tied to resource to heal with to help your mana recoup.

[Silver-Strider]

Damn... They're all different though... And even spells of similar heal potency like Medica and Afflatus Rapture have Afflatus being tied to a resource so in the event of death, you won't have access to it immediately upon res so you at least other ogcds not tied to resource to heal with to help your mana recoup.

That still doesn't excuse needing half of those skills.
Afflatus Skills could literally become a Trait that Cure 2/Medica become free instant cast skills when a Lily is available and considering that AST's seals don't disappear on death anymore, I fail to see why WHM and SCH are still SoL when it comes to their resource tools. Cure 1/Cure 2 could literally be merged with no real consequence. PI could just be removed and Temperance could have its CD reduced to 60s instead of 120s. Cure 3 could be removed and Medica could just get a potency buff. I don't need 20+ skills when I could just make adjustments to my current toolkit that would accomplish the same exact thing. The sheer amount of bloat in our healing toolkits just doesn't have any logical reason to exist other than neglect in terms of healing toolkits.

[LeonKeyh]

Damn... They're all different though... And even spells of similar heal potency like Medica and Afflatus Rapture have Afflatus being tied to a resource so in the event of death, you won't have access to it immediately upon res so you at least other ogcds not tied to resource to heal with to help your mana recoup.

There's definitely SOME nuance to each of the healing spells, but that nuance would be much better stated if you weren't DPSing for ~80% of your button presses. That nuance should be moved to the kit that you spend a majority of time using. It really seems like that nuance is there just to try to make higher level healing "more complex" but it doesn't do a great job at it. It seems to merely be to try to make it look like you're getting more and more "powerful" as a healer.


Personally, I don't think that healers having "combos" is really enough, but it's definitely an improvement. I think they should make Healers have a more active support role when it comes to increasing teammates' DPS, like Astrologian does right now. Not something that is "press this button every time it becomes available." It would be something that is always available and the healers would need to keep running. Maybe one healer would have a combo with increasing cast time as you go through the combo and the final ability will refresh the buff on everyone. Maybe SCH would tick up the Fairy gauge by keeping multiple DoTs on enemies and when the Fairy Gauge is full they have access to an ability that buffs everyone.

I don't know what it would look like, and I still think that just making the healers' DPS kits "better" is good enough. I'm just trying to think of something that doesn't result in the healer continuing to be a DPS that uses a heal every once in a while. I'm trying to think of something _different_.

[Silver-Strider]

But like with how toolkits work, if you need that for 10% of content, you're gonna be able to have access to it regardless if you're gonna be doing that 10% of content or not... And asking them to make content in the 90% that will get tied to Roulettes harder defeats the purpose of having them be in Roulettes.

That's the problem though, you don't need it even in that 10% of content. Unless you're solo healing, you can ignore half of your toolkit and still end up overhealing because of how potent our heals are and that isn't helped at all by the fact that every other role is getting more support tools to further reduce the need of all these skills. Not only that but there is a ton of skill overlap that needs to be addressed.

Cure 3, Medica, Afflatus Rapture, Medica 2, Lilybell. WHY TF DO I NEED 5 AOE HEALS? 6 if you want to count Assize.
Why do I need PI, Temperance and Asylum to boost my Healing potency?
Why do I need Cure 2, Afflatus Solace, Tetra and Benediction for ST healing? Throw Cure 1 in if you want to get technical about it.

Half of my toolkit is literally overlapping to fill in the exact same purpose so why do they exist? Truth is, they don't need to exist. You could adjust CDs/Potencies and remove half of them with 0 ill effects on your capacity to heal. It's just ridiculous at this point

[GoatOfWar]

That's the problem though, you don't need it even in that 10% of content. Unless you're solo healing, you can ignore half of your toolkit and still end up overhealing because of how potent our heals are and that isn't helped at all by the fact that every other role is getting more support tools to further reduce the need of needing all these skills. Not only that but there is a ton of skill overlap that needs to be addressed.

Cure 3, Medica, Afflatus Rapture, Medica 2, Lilybell. WHY TF DO I NEED 5 AOE HEALS? 6 if you want to count Assize.
Why do I need PI, Temperance and Asylum to boost my Healing potency?
Why do I need Cure 2, Afflatus Solace, Tetra and Benediction for ST healing? Throw Cure 1 in if you want to get technical about it.

Half of my toolkit is literally overlapping to fill in the exact same purpose so why do they exist? Truth is, they don't need to exist. You could adjust CDs/Potencies and remove half of them with 0 ill effects on your capacity to heal. It's just ridiculous at this point

And with the removal of heal bloat you can now add in a basic damage rotation.

[UkcsAlias]

And with the removal of heal bloat you can now add in a basic damage rotation.

But what would be the system here? A basic 1,2,3?

And what about being forced to interupt? Does it mean you need to start at 1 again. If so, this already creates a problem in which healers are essentialy forced to delay heals etc. I dont want any system in which teammates have to suffer (die, or waste a lot of cooldowns) because i had to compensate for a combo. If i need to use a GCD heal, there should be no reason to not do that! Healing must get priority on a healer (if thats demanded by the team). DPS is still just idle time filler (even though idle times are 80%+).

And if it just remembers the position in the combo, what is the use of its existance? You might as well just place everything on 1 button again, which negates the need for the combo system in it. This is why healers currently only have 1 spammable single target dps ability, and 1 AoE based one. While not the most interesting, its effective at what it is supposed to do.

I would realy like to see other systems, but so far most of the ones that other roles have, just create flaws that a healer should not have.

The only way i could come up with that does create some additional options was:
1 button is the spammable dps (lets say 225 potency), and upon each usage, the 2 button gets charged (for example 50 per cast, starts at 200 potency, but can charge to 700). This allows potency optimizing as a mechanic, while essentialy it will not disrupt healing since the mechanic is completely seperated. If we want to interweave them a bit, we could also make GCD healing charge the 2 button (let say we even give it a value of 150 for this, making the dps reduction reduced slightly). But if this is a good system, i dont know.

[GoatOfWar]

It works for tanks. Why wouldn't it work for healers? Heals or ogcd's do not have to interrupt the combo.

[UkcsAlias]

That depends on the Healer

I like the concrete ideas here as thats exactly the sort of info that hopefully inspires SE.

It works for tanks. Why wouldn't it work for healers? Heals or ogcd's do not have to interrupt the combo.

SE already did this by making the ranged skills on all melee DPS/Tanks not break their combos so there's already precedent for GCDs to not break the combo and GCD heals could follow suit.

The issue on this is, for tanks DPS is required to maintain emnity. Its a key factor within the role, and to maintain good emnity maximizing DPS is the optimal way to play. For a healer, its technicaly a side task. The primary task is to keep teammates alive (which they do through healing). Multi button combo systems do actualy distract from this. Which is why if such combo is added, it has to have a meaning. Sure, a healer still should normaly optimize dps, but the kit should not represent this requirement in order to avoid players pushing it too much. A wasted heal is still generaly still better than missing a heal. If your teammate dies or has to resolve to panic healing etc, that removes a much bigger portion of dps/sustain after all.

Luckily you also had ideas to take an approach here (still, for compacting i would aim towards 1-2-4 and 1-3-4 as system where the 4 button adjusts based on the 2 or 3 press, while preserving the dynamic aspect). Other than that, its just throwing around ideas to which you cant realy say what is going to be balanced/fun (but then again, i did the same earlier).

And maybe we can even have a 3rd combo feature in it: pressing 4 without the 2 or 3 before, allows the 1 button to get some benefit. (to enable even more finetuning in usage)