What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[YukikoKurosawa]

I understand people (including myself) have issues with the game's narrative direction right now but let's not turn to games like Ashes of Creation as a serious alternative. A pvp mmo (that never works in the current age, see New World. Anyone serious about PvP is playing proper pvp games nowadays, not MMOs) that's made top to bottom to cater to streamers and their mindless followers (only a limited number of people can get flying in the game so streamers will 100% get them thanks to having the advantage of an army of simps who will farm and funnel all necessary resources to them before anyone else can), generic realistic artstyle, generic medieval fantasy, horrible animations, hideous character models, $500 beta access, already loaded with cash shop items despite not even being out. The absolutely embarressing updated combat video they just recently revealed really sealed any doubt the game is a dumpster fire waiting to happen on the off chance it ever comes out. And as far as I've seen the game doesn't even have a story or lore.

Or a game outright memed on for it's horrendous conclusion to a series like Mass Effect 3.

Like I get it, this game's story has problems right now. But if you're at the point where you're praising Mass Effect 3 you've veered straight into contrarianism.

Based on this thread, I think some of you would enjoy Witcher 3 or Pathologic 2, if none of you have played either (most people have played Witcher 3 by now). I have my issues with the former (mostly Blood and Wine's story but if I explain why I'll need at least 3 more entire posts), but otherwise thoroughly enjoyed it. And Pathologic 2 is one of the greatest written RPGs (and horror games) I've ever played. Both of which are, funnily enough, on sale on steam right now. Play some actual good RPGs.

[Lunaxia]

snip

Ah, Hyth's quote was the one I was thinking of! I distinctly remembered it being said the Convocation more or less never ventured forth from Amaurot, but felt it was rather pointless to post without recalling where. I was wondering if Yoshi had dropped it in an interview.

I'm far from a fan of Venat, but it's grasping at straws trying to compare what at most would have been occasional work trips for the Convocation to what was essentially not only a job but a way of life to anyone in the seat of Azem.

[MikkoAkure]

Ah, Hyth's quote was the one I was thinking of! I distinctly remembered it being said the Convocation more or less never ventured forth from Amaurot, but felt it was rather pointless to post without recalling where. I was wondering if Yoshi had dropped it in an interview.

I'm far from a fan of Venat, but it's grasping at straws trying to compare what at most would have been occasional work trips for the Convocation to what was essentially not only a job but a way of life to anyone in the seat of Azem.

Ultimately I was under the impression the whole time that the reason Azem didn't support the summonings was because they were more in tune with the planet than the Convocation thought they were and seen more of the actual world and were more connected to the actual people living off the land. When it was revealed in EW that Venat was the previous Azem, I figured that extended to her too. Hythlodeus said that part of the purpose of Zodiark's summoning was to impart a will onto the planet, where there was none before. Stopping the Final Days and restoring life to the world is one thing, but spending time to cultivate it and then sacrifice a portion for their new god seemed to be the red line.

I wish they went more on that angle than any of the Dynamis nonsense but we got what we got.

I wish the dialogue going on here was more along the lines of "Hey writers, you've wanted to make her a sympathetic character from the beginning in ARR, I think you missed the mark here, can you fix this or make us understand better" instead of "Venat is evil and a terrible person and the writers are bad for trying to make us care for a villain" when the character herself and the intentions behind her existed for years longer than the current writing for her has.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I understand people (including myself) have issues with the game's narrative direction right now but let's not turn to games like Ashes of Creation as a serious alternative. A pvp mmo (that never works in the current age, see New World. Anyone serious about PvP is playing proper pvp games nowadays, not MMOs) that's made top to bottom to cater to streamers and their mindless followers (only a limited number of people can get flying in the game so streamers will 100% get them thanks to having the advantage of an army of simps who will farm and funnel all necessary resources to them before anyone else can), generic realistic artstyle, generic medieval fantasy, horrible animations, hideous character models, $500 beta access, already loaded with cash shop items despite not even being out. The absolutely embarressing updated combat video they just recently revealed really sealed any doubt the game is a dumpster fire waiting to happen on the off chance it ever comes out. And as far as I've seen the game doesn't even have a story or lore.

Or a game outright memed on for it's horrendous conclusion to a series like Mass Effect 3.

Like I get it, this game's story has problems right now. But if you're at the point where you're praising Mass Effect 3 you've veered straight into contrarianism.

Based on this thread, I think some of you would enjoy Witcher 3 or Pathologic 2, if none of you have played either (most people have played Witcher 3 by now). I have my issues with the former (mostly Blood and Wine's story but if I explain why I'll need at least 3 more entire posts), but otherwise thoroughly enjoyed it. And Pathologic 2 is one of the greatest written RPGs (and horror games) I've ever played. Both of which are, funnily enough, on sale on steam right now. Play some actual good RPGs.

Uh, lets give people their choices shall we? 14's story is but one of many problems. The game's gameplay has been incredibly lacking and the healer role has been ignored for 6+ years. Personally i am excitingly waiting for Ashes as it seems to be offering everything ive ever wanted in an mmo. As for story or lore im going to assume you havent looked much into the game because its very rich in lore so far from what we can see. Its similar to the Souls franchise however where they dont seem to give you explicit answers on things, its up to you to search and put the puzzle pieces together yourself and come to lore conclusions.

[Theodric]

I enjoy PvP and it has Roman inspired Elves. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I'll certainly be tempering my expectations but it's shaping up to my liking and offering a lot of things that I wish FFXIV had embraced more firmly.

As for Hydaelyn, she never came across as trustworthy or sympathetic to me. Even before it was revealed that the Sundering was intentional.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I enjoy PvP and it has Roman inspired Elves. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I'll certainly be tempering my expectations but it's shaping up to my liking and offering a lot of things that I wish FFXIV had embraced more firmly.

As for Hydaelyn, she never came across as trustworthy or sympathetic to me. Even before it was revealed that the Sundering was intentional.

Yeah, it is funny to me too that people bash the art style or character models....like hello? 14 models look horrific, its taken 10+ years before they even address it and are only now just starting to change it. The men look pretty meh, they only just recently got facial hair after 10 years.Meanwhile Ashes has sliders for everything, the character models and creation looks extremely extensive, and so does the combat, where there are pretty neat things like weapons dragging across the ground leaving marks etc, something completely foreign to 14.Not to mention the extensive class system that gives you actual choices...and omg, mechanics that require you to jump?! 14's servers would blow up at the thought of it.

[Lunaxia]

snip

I had a similar interpretation, though with the view that "our" Azem wanted to preserve all life above all else; from what we see of our WoL, I envisioned them as firmly against the idea of any form of sacrifice being necessary, and set out to find their own solution to the problem. One of my main problems with the story is how this divergence is never actually touched upon, though; we actively turned away from Venat and sought to find a different answer, yet our present selves are never given the opportunity to question or express... well, anything about what happened to our past selves and the world we were a part of. I wanted to see some turmoil in our WoL about their feelings towards Hydaelyn, the fact they wiped out the last of their previous people (however necessary it might have been) or just... anything to do with what came before. Regardless of the conclusion of they came to, anything would have been better than unyielding acceptance.

I do agree on dynamis; the whole plot surrounding the Endsinger was so unnecessary when there was so much there they could have explored with the characters, their motivations, the various conflicts, and the chaos it created. They give us one short scene of grief-stricken Ancients surrounded by fire and carnage lamenting their losses to try and convey the entirety of what happened and make some attempt at justification that just didn't cut it, amidst endless stretches of filler that could have been cut to make something so much more substantial.

I'll admit, the vitriol does reach a level I've felt it necessary to step back from sometimes, and likewise I wish discussing it could stay within the realms of rationality. But there is a very real dismissiveness by the writers towards the Ancients in the story who a lot of people had grown to care for, and a powerful hypocrisy regarding the light Hydaelyn's actions are presented in versus that of the Ascians that gives rise to some strong reactions. I struggle listening to Flow without getting at least a little irritated. It was all just handled so poorly, when there was more than enough potential for an ending rivalling that of the heights of HW and ShB. I think what also makes it worse is that this is the end of it all to boot; were it an earlier expansion, the response might have been more tempered, but considering Yoshi has made a point of slamming the book shut and point blank telling us that's all there is to it, it becomes that much more a bitter pill to swallow.

As an aside, I'll also say I found Hydaelyn somewhat suspect from Minfilia's teleportation and "possession" in HW, so a darker side to her was never wildly off the cards for me.

[Teraq]

Re: The Convocation sitting on their asses on Amaurot. I, naturally, despise this concept with all of my heart, because the player base relies entirely too much on it to other the Convocation and cast them as aloof, unaware of what is happening in the real world and only Azem actually dealt with the real little people. Extend this to Venat, as the former Azem, for the maximum anti-Ancient headcanon, because only she travelled at all and thus she would know everything about how people would react, so she was 100% right you guys and the Ancients as a whole were just spoiled little children.

The thing is, I don't think it makes much sense personally. As someone who likes headcanoning that the Convocation was basically a big dysfunctional family, I do love thinking Azem would call upon any of them at the drop of a hat whenever the situation called for it. I mean... if a massive marine animal is causing trouble, who you gonna call? Maybe not just Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch. But that's just me.

Hyth in FR says that Azem, rather than coming back to Amaurot to report to the Convocation for every little trouble, would call upon their comrades to deal with the situation. I have always interpreted "comrades" as the Convocation, given that it followed the mention of the Convocation. I suppose you could interpret "comrades" as separate from the Convocation here, but I see nothing indicating they would be mutually exclusive. My mind jumped to "comrades = Convocation" because of my personal bias as indicated above, but you could just as well go with "comrades = absolutely not the Convocation (okay Emet you can come)".

Most of them were probably well-traveled before being named to their Seat, much like Hades. You don't just become a member of the Convocation by being a random Amaurotine. The knowledge and expertise they need to have implies to me that they had to know a whole lot about the world. Like... Mitron and Loghrif? Yeah, you probably don't become an expert on aquatic and terrestrial lifeforms by reading books in Akademia Anyder.

Though I suppose this is drifting into my unease with Azem as the Traveller as a concept. Makes them a little too special, and I've always thought the "shepherd to the stars" title was more fitting to... a mediator type... but I guess this title might not have been an Ancient thing, and was merely a figure of speech by Emet/Totally-Hythlo to refer to the WoL's role in vanquishing the Ascians now.

[Lauront]

Hytholodeus said that the others sat in Amaurot while the seat of Azem's role was to wander the world as the traveler and help people. Even if the others visited, that wasn't their main purpose and didn't do it to the same extent. The people Emet-Selch helped were from when he was Hades and before he was on the Convocation and we have no further insight into it except that it was "people the world over" but mostly Azem.

Sure, but again, that's just from the point of view of the seat's duties. I agree with the rest but to me it's a big so what, especially since all Convocation members had lives that may have taken them all over the star before their ascent, and in some cases, they may well have done travelling in addition to their other duties. If anything, all the traits Emet is praising her for meant she had all the more to live up to and her inability or unwillingness to relay the truth to her people is all the worse for it.

I only hope at this point they keep the PC Azem distant from her and don't have them partake of her plans to sunder the world, as that will be the final nail in the coffin for me. I don't want them to have anything to do with it.

Uh, lets give people their choices shall we? 14's story is but one of many problems. The game's gameplay has been incredibly lacking and the healer role has been ignored for 6+ years. Personally i am excitingly waiting for Ashes as it seems to be offering everything ive ever wanted in an mmo. As for story or lore im going to assume you havent looked much into the game because its very rich in lore so far from what we can see. Its similar to the Souls franchise however where they dont seem to give you explicit answers on things, its up to you to search and put the puzzle pieces together yourself and come to lore conclusions.

Yeah, I don't get it either. Can't say the story direction of this game enthuses me much. I'm not sure what it is exactly I would be missing out on from hopping over to Ashes at this point.

[...]

Thank you for articulating in words my shared hatred of this particular headcanon.

[Carin-Eri]

Ultimately I was under the impression the whole time that the reason Azem didn't support the summonings was because they were more in tune with the planet than the Convocation thought they were and seen more of the actual world and were more connected to the actual people living off the land. When it was revealed in EW that Venat was the previous Azem, I figured that extended to her too. Hythlodeus said that part of the purpose of Zodiark's summoning was to impart a will onto the planet, where there was none before. Stopping the Final Days and restoring life to the world is one thing, but spending time to cultivate it and then sacrifice a portion for their new god seemed to be the red line.

I wish they went more on that angle than any of the Dynamis nonsense but we got what we got.

I wish the dialogue going on here was more along the lines of "Hey writers, you've wanted to make her a sympathetic character from the beginning in ARR, I think you missed the mark here, can you fix this or make us understand better" instead of "Venat is evil and a terrible person and the writers are bad for trying to make us care for a villain" when the character herself and the intentions behind her existed for years longer than the current writing for her has.

My knowledge of the game's lore isn't overly extensive, and haven't been a player for too long (eight months), and will acknowldge that this may have been addressed at some point in the past. Therefore am putting this as an honest question rather than anything else:
Was it always the intention for Hydaelyn's story to play out the way it did?

I mean, to be honest, it doesn't really feel as if it was.