What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lunaxia]

It's entirely possible that a person can be the best in everything...

Funnily enough, amongst my many gripes about her, Venat's being a revered genius never actually bothered me that much. As you say, given that someone who has previously occupied the seat of Azem likely contributed tremendously to her community, the fact that Convocation members tend towards the remarkable anyway, and that she has lived an unusually long life, I think that part of her characterisation was perfectly plausible.

What does bother me is how they never touch on that information after that point. Lahabrea in JP is referred to as "old man" when he hasn't yet retired; how much older then, is Venat, and why is she never presented as anything other than intelligent and experienced whilst retaining a relative sense of youth in comparison? Why does no one remark on how odd it is that she refuses to return to the star, and the potential reasons behind it? Or that her innate genius may have led to a form of arrogance resulting in such terrible decisions?

There is plenty there to make Venat a more fleshed out and ambiguous character, and yet they do nothing with it, which I take more issue with than her being "too" gifted.

Sorry for trying to stop the game...

What I've already been saying. Develop a stronger mentality to deal with disagreements and stop taking them personally, or go somewhere that will not cause you distress. If the game itself is bothering you - which I understand to some degree, it's not easy to see something you love change, especially when it feels for the worse - then you can either continue to play and hope for the best, or find a new game. Making yourself out to be a victim isn't the answer, though, and you may actually find some comfort in the realisation you are just one opinion amongst many.

there is a group of people who do not want players like me around and are cheering this whole thing on.

You were rather adamant about the SMN changes staying as well despite the outcry, as I seem to recall.

[MikkoAkure]

What does bother me is how they never touch on that information after that point. Lahabrea in JP is referred to as "old man" when he hasn't yet retired; how much older then, is Venat, and why is she never presented as anything other than intelligent and experienced whilst retaining a relative sense of youth in comparison? Why does no one remark on how odd it is that she refuses to return to the star, and the potential reasons behind it? Or that her innate genius may have led to a form of arrogance resulting in such terrible decisions?

There is plenty there to make Venat a more fleshed out and ambiguous character, and yet they do nothing with it, which I take more issue with than her being "too" gifted.

I was under the impression that what made her different from the others is that like our Azem, she actually wandered around the world and experienced things. Most of the Convocation rarely if ever left Amaurot. Unless we were specifically chosen to replace Venat as Azem due to being equally batty, I think actually going to the world and meeting people and doing things down there affected the outlooks for both Azems.

I'm hoping for a Tales from the Dawn that will go into this and I'm at least expecting something from Venat's point of view, considering how important she is to the story and already had Hades and Elidibus' POVs in the Tales. Though I'm sure this thread or another will explode no matter what's written in it anyway.

[aveyond-dreams]

words

I'm not apologizing for telling the individuals who wanted Summoner to stay as or revert to a discount poison mage to leave the job, because that was a design flaw so fundamental and contradictory to the job's core fantasy and gameplay loop. Some of those individuals argued that literal glitches were "complexity" and that working around those was supposed to act as a skill check on the playerbase despite that working nowhere near as intended. I am not sorry for anything I said. Complexity needs to come from mechanics that are functional and fit the job fantasy, and a dark themed Necromancer/Time Mage should have been added ages ago to satisfy that niche instead of Summoner. Goodness, even I am about to drop the job again because I'm tired of summoning the same primals from ARR with no Shiva or Alexander coming until 7.0 at the earliest.

All I know is in terms of story the writers who did the work I like were entrusted with the future of the mainline series for FFXVI but for obvious reasons that game isn't going to satisfy mmo players nor will it keep me as a single-player hooked the same way this game does. It isn't for everyone. I know that FFXIV can do better than whatever it's currently doing, and seeing this game double down on the subjective humour is frustrating.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I was under the impression that what made her different from the others is that like our Azem, she actually wandered around the world and experienced things. Most of the Convocation rarely if ever left Amaurot. Unless we were specifically chosen to replace Venat as Azem due to being equally batty, I think actually going to the world and meeting people and doing things down there affected the outlooks for both Azems.

I'm hoping for a Tales from the Dawn that will go into this and I'm at least expecting something from Venat's point of view, considering how important she is to the story and already had Hades and Elidibus' POVs in the Tales. Though I'm sure this thread or another will explode no matter what's written in it anyway.

When did we get Elidibus' POV in the tales? Afaik he hasnt gotten anything of the sort. We're just told he exited Zodiark to help mediate, we arent actually shown his pov in any of this.

Also can i ask for a source on the convocation "rarely if ever leaving amaurot?" Because i dont recall that ever being mentioned and Lahabrea kind of contradicts that seeing as Pandaemonium exists. Seems like headcanon to me.

[Theodric]

I was under the impression that what made her different from the others is that like our Azem, she actually wandered around the world and experienced things. Most of the Convocation rarely if ever left Amaurot. Unless we were specifically chosen to replace Venat as Azem due to being equally batty, I think actually going to the world and meeting people and doing things down there affected the outlooks for both Azems.

I'm hoping for a Tales from the Dawn that will go into this and I'm at least expecting something from Venat's point of view, considering how important she is to the story and already had Hades and Elidibus' POVs in the Tales. Though I'm sure this thread or another will explode no matter what's written in it anyway.

Hythlodaeus points out during Elpis that Emet-Selch travelled Etheirys as well, helping others without ever expecting gratitude or praise in return. So Venat certainly wasn't unique in terms of actually walking amongst her people - though she certainly seemed to delude herself into thinking as such. It was never explicitly stated whether the other members of the Convocation travelled as well and to the same extent but I daresay it's a safe bet that they did to a decent degree.

As for a Venat centric story, I do suspect it wouldn't go down well if it was another 'here's why genocide is good, actually' moment. I will say, though, it's been positively delightful to watch the mental gymnastics from many of Venat's more...enthusiastic supporters declare that she had no choice despite, in some cases, spending years insisting that there was never a good excuse for genocide no matter how sympathetic the motive or backstory.

[Lauront]

I'd like the source, too. All we know is the seat of Azem had a nomadic aspect to it to help steer the Convocation in identifying problems to resolve, which the seat occupant sometimes resolved themselves in the WOL's original shard's case; while that entails an aspect of good problem solving and communication skills (you know, the sort that'd let you figure out how to relay the truth of the Final Days to your people without Hermes becoming an issue, rather than lecturing some traumatised ancients as their world is on fire, etc.), it does not suggest someone who is an expert in everything, so much as a jack of all trades. Emet too is stated to be very well travelled, so even if I were to grant that they mainly convened in Amaurot post-ascension, I'm unclear how that'd erase any experiences prior to this or how it doesn't cease to be relevant beyond a certain point. They're all ultimately drawn into their roles for being exceptional individuals, so I am willing to assume Venat, being long-lived (though whether longer than Lahabrea is an open question given that retirement appears to be at their discretion, and he is a workaholic), had expertise in quite a few fields, but not just on account of the seat in question and certainly not to the extent that Emet characterisation goes.

The Tales story just gives more narration from Hades's POV - he is the one addressing Elidibus. His own POV is only ever expressed in SoS and later, in Elpis.

[Rulakir]

I feel like something that could have fixed her EW character is even a short quest that shows her fear about the job required as well as an actual attempt to change the future, instead of her immediately going "well I'm going to play by the rules of two immensely homicidal maniacs because lol." it would establish her as a well-meaning but imperfect character, and failing to convince the convocation about the final days would make a great failure point to allow for her becoming Hydaelyn as a last-ditch attempt to save the universe.

This wouldn't have helped. Venat is an ideological extremist and her reasons for the sundering are mutually exclusive. It wouldn't have mattered if the Ancients changed if she still believed them incapable of defeating Meteion due to their aetheric density. Likewise, it wouldn't have mattered if they could defeat Meteion if they wouldn't change. This means any of her efforts to 'try' to change things come across as little more than a ruse as she's already determined they can't survive or they simply didn't change fast enough for her.

The narrative also failed to make the case for either. Venat is not a prophet, there's no possible way for her to know that the Ancients would become something akin to The Plenty. This was a fear of hers, not a guarantee. Likewise, she herself admits she only has a basic understanding of dynamis and it's not her field of study, so she's also ill-equipped to determine that the Ancients could never devise a plan even knowing they would have at least 12k years to devise something.

Additionally, Hydaelyn is the amalgamation of antagonist ideologies the Scions have historically opposed, yet when it comes to her there are no sanctimonious speeches. This is character consistent to some extent as the Scions have always been irrationally zealous towards her, continually hand waving anything negative and trusting her implicitly. It would've been nice if there were explanation for this. It's not just Venat who's a Mary Sue, Hydaelyn herself appears to suffer from none of the downsides of being a primal to the extent that she's apparently the only one who conveniently doesn't temper (it would make more sense if she did).

The WoL is a whole other can of worms since Hydaelyn is responsible for the murder of their original self. Why we trust her after learning this is beyond me and, frankly, her being Azem's mentor just makes it worse because it exemplifies that she has no love for individuals when it comes to her agenda. In fact, knowing and relying upon the bond between Emet and Azem to work in her favor in the future is so emotionally manipulative it's absolutely sinister. This isn't to say I believe she's evil, but in the annals of history she is one of its foremost antagonists second only to Hermes. Good intentions and feeling like she had no other choice doesn't change this fact.

Venat was always going to be a controversial character given the way she was written. Having the sundering be on purpose and with knowledge of the future was a huge mistake. They wrote themselves into a corner. The best thing they could have done was gone with nuance and it's unfortunate they didn't because it created a lot of dissonance between what her character is responsible for and how it was treated.

[Lunaxia]

Unless we were specifically chosen to replace Venat as Azem due to being equally batty

I mean, they do tiptoe near that idea... (kidding... sort of.)

snip

So you're saying that made her want to continue living? Interesting theory, and one it never occurred to me they might have been trying to hint at, despite it fitting in quite well with their "connections with people make life worth living" mantra. Though on the other hand it comes with insinuations about the other Ancients I'm a tad wary about, and it makes her decision to sunder a world she supposedly found so much joy and adventure in all the more tenuous... we will definitely get something from Venat's POV, though, every major character in an EP gets one, and it's usually fairly substantial in terms of insight into the character. I'll be very interested to see which direction they take it in - will they seek to appease those who criticise her actions by revealing some unflattering truths or self-introspection regarding the sundering, or make her all the more sympathetic and "stuck between a rock and a hard place", as it were?

I'm not apologizing...

And neither will those who think Endwalker was refreshingly uplifting, adore Venat, and enjoy the levity and humor the Scion cutscenes and Hildibrand questlines provide. It works both ways.

[Rulakir]

Hyth says in Elpis that Emet was essentially at Azem's beck and call. It's also implied that the two of them were who Azem turned to for assistance rather than the Convocation.

As for a Venat centric story, I do suspect it wouldn't go down well if it was another 'here's why genocide is good, actually' moment. I will say, though, it's been positively delightful to watch the mental gymnastics from many of Venat's more...enthusiastic supporters declare that she had no choice despite, in some cases, spending years insisting that there was never a good excuse for genocide no matter how sympathetic the motive or backstory.

This. My best case scenario is it's a story about Venat and the person the Watcher was based on, even I'd be interested in reading about their relationship. However, no more glorification of Hydaelyn or celebration of the sundering, please.

[MikkoAkure]

When did we get Elidibus' POV in the tales? Afaik he hasnt gotten anything of the sort. We're just told he exited Zodiark to help mediate, we arent actually shown his pov in any of this.

Ah, the scene from "Ere Our Curtain Falls" was another Emet-Selch one about Elidibus. I misremembered that as being from his point of view.

Also can i ask for a source on the convocation "rarely if ever leaving amaurot?" Because i dont recall that ever being mentioned and Lahabrea kind of contradicts that seeing as Pandaemonium exists. Seems like headcanon to me.

Hythlodaeus points out during Elpis that Emet-Selch travelled Etheirys as well, helping others without ever expecting gratitude or praise in return. So Venat certainly wasn't unique in terms of actually walking amongst her people - though she certainly seemed to delude herself into thinking as such. It was never explicitly stated whether the other members of the Convocation travelled as well and to the same extent but I daresay it's a safe bet that they did to a decent degree.

Hytholodeus said that the others sat in Amaurot while the seat of Azem's role was to wander the world as the traveler and help people. Even if the others visited, that wasn't their main purpose and didn't do it to the same extent. The people Emet-Selch helped were from when he was Hades and before he was on the Convocation and we have no further insight into it except that it was "people the world over" but mostly Azem.

Among all the offices, the Fourteenth was most unusual. For while the rest sat in Amaurot, its holder was charged with gaining an intimate knowledge of the wider world.
In the course of her duty, she traveled the length and breadth of every land, and befriended countless folk.
She encountered troubles too, of course. Matters which she could simply have referred to the Convocation. But that was not her way.

And Azem, traveler of the world and counselor to the people.

You travel often, then? It seems we have something in common.
Long ago, when I held the seat of Azem, I was forever trekking back and forth across the star in search of answers to people's problems.

'Tis a rest well deserved and long overdue, I should think. How greatly have we prospered for the wisdom you accumulated during your travels as Azem.