What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lunaxia]

I endured...

No one is asking you to make a martyr out of yourself and "endure" anything. If participating in discussions is detrimental to your mental wellbeing, then step away from the forums for a while. This is not the crusade you make it out to be, and disagreeing with you is not the personal attack you think it is.

There is 0 reason to bring up whether someones opinion is a minority or not. Especially in a thread where most people typically agree with the persons views youre arguing against.

There absolutely is a reason when I'm defining why you will be getting a response you perceive as a "backlash."

[aveyond-dreams]

No one is asking you to make a martyr out of yourself and "endure" anything. If participating in discussions is detrimental to your mental wellbeing, then step away from the forums for a while. This is not the crusade you make it out to be, and disagreeing with you is not the personal attack you think it is.



There absolutely is a reason when I'm defining why you will be getting a response you perceive as a "backlash."

Sorry for trying to stop the game I liked from turning into what it's turning into. It's more than just "disagreeing" when it's clear that there is a group of people who do not want players like me around and are cheering this whole thing on. This isn't even as bad as some of these recent job changes because at least when it comes to that I can just change jobs. But when more and more of the story is going down this same path? What else am I supposed to turn to?

[Lunaxia]

It's entirely possible that a person can be the best in everything...

Funnily enough, amongst my many gripes about her, Venat's being a revered genius never actually bothered me that much. As you say, given that someone who has previously occupied the seat of Azem likely contributed tremendously to her community, the fact that Convocation members tend towards the remarkable anyway, and that she has lived an unusually long life, I think that part of her characterisation was perfectly plausible.

What does bother me is how they never touch on that information after that point. Lahabrea in JP is referred to as "old man" when he hasn't yet retired; how much older then, is Venat, and why is she never presented as anything other than intelligent and experienced whilst retaining a relative sense of youth in comparison? Why does no one remark on how odd it is that she refuses to return to the star, and the potential reasons behind it? Or that her innate genius may have led to a form of arrogance resulting in such terrible decisions?

There is plenty there to make Venat a more fleshed out and ambiguous character, and yet they do nothing with it, which I take more issue with than her being "too" gifted.

Sorry for trying to stop the game...

What I've already been saying. Develop a stronger mentality to deal with disagreements and stop taking them personally, or go somewhere that will not cause you distress. If the game itself is bothering you - which I understand to some degree, it's not easy to see something you love change, especially when it feels for the worse - then you can either continue to play and hope for the best, or find a new game. Making yourself out to be a victim isn't the answer, though, and you may actually find some comfort in the realisation you are just one opinion amongst many.

there is a group of people who do not want players like me around and are cheering this whole thing on.

You were rather adamant about the SMN changes staying as well despite the outcry, as I seem to recall.

[MikkoAkure]

What does bother me is how they never touch on that information after that point. Lahabrea in JP is referred to as "old man" when he hasn't yet retired; how much older then, is Venat, and why is she never presented as anything other than intelligent and experienced whilst retaining a relative sense of youth in comparison? Why does no one remark on how odd it is that she refuses to return to the star, and the potential reasons behind it? Or that her innate genius may have led to a form of arrogance resulting in such terrible decisions?

There is plenty there to make Venat a more fleshed out and ambiguous character, and yet they do nothing with it, which I take more issue with than her being "too" gifted.

I was under the impression that what made her different from the others is that like our Azem, she actually wandered around the world and experienced things. Most of the Convocation rarely if ever left Amaurot. Unless we were specifically chosen to replace Venat as Azem due to being equally batty, I think actually going to the world and meeting people and doing things down there affected the outlooks for both Azems.

I'm hoping for a Tales from the Dawn that will go into this and I'm at least expecting something from Venat's point of view, considering how important she is to the story and already had Hades and Elidibus' POVs in the Tales. Though I'm sure this thread or another will explode no matter what's written in it anyway.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I was under the impression that what made her different from the others is that like our Azem, she actually wandered around the world and experienced things. Most of the Convocation rarely if ever left Amaurot. Unless we were specifically chosen to replace Venat as Azem due to being equally batty, I think actually going to the world and meeting people and doing things down there affected the outlooks for both Azems.

I'm hoping for a Tales from the Dawn that will go into this and I'm at least expecting something from Venat's point of view, considering how important she is to the story and already had Hades and Elidibus' POVs in the Tales. Though I'm sure this thread or another will explode no matter what's written in it anyway.

When did we get Elidibus' POV in the tales? Afaik he hasnt gotten anything of the sort. We're just told he exited Zodiark to help mediate, we arent actually shown his pov in any of this.

Also can i ask for a source on the convocation "rarely if ever leaving amaurot?" Because i dont recall that ever being mentioned and Lahabrea kind of contradicts that seeing as Pandaemonium exists. Seems like headcanon to me.

[Theodric]

I was under the impression that what made her different from the others is that like our Azem, she actually wandered around the world and experienced things. Most of the Convocation rarely if ever left Amaurot. Unless we were specifically chosen to replace Venat as Azem due to being equally batty, I think actually going to the world and meeting people and doing things down there affected the outlooks for both Azems.

I'm hoping for a Tales from the Dawn that will go into this and I'm at least expecting something from Venat's point of view, considering how important she is to the story and already had Hades and Elidibus' POVs in the Tales. Though I'm sure this thread or another will explode no matter what's written in it anyway.

Hythlodaeus points out during Elpis that Emet-Selch travelled Etheirys as well, helping others without ever expecting gratitude or praise in return. So Venat certainly wasn't unique in terms of actually walking amongst her people - though she certainly seemed to delude herself into thinking as such. It was never explicitly stated whether the other members of the Convocation travelled as well and to the same extent but I daresay it's a safe bet that they did to a decent degree.

As for a Venat centric story, I do suspect it wouldn't go down well if it was another 'here's why genocide is good, actually' moment. I will say, though, it's been positively delightful to watch the mental gymnastics from many of Venat's more...enthusiastic supporters declare that she had no choice despite, in some cases, spending years insisting that there was never a good excuse for genocide no matter how sympathetic the motive or backstory.

[Rulakir]

Hyth says in Elpis that Emet was essentially at Azem's beck and call. It's also implied that the two of them were who Azem turned to for assistance rather than the Convocation.

As for a Venat centric story, I do suspect it wouldn't go down well if it was another 'here's why genocide is good, actually' moment. I will say, though, it's been positively delightful to watch the mental gymnastics from many of Venat's more...enthusiastic supporters declare that she had no choice despite, in some cases, spending years insisting that there was never a good excuse for genocide no matter how sympathetic the motive or backstory.

This. My best case scenario is it's a story about Venat and the person the Watcher was based on, even I'd be interested in reading about their relationship. However, no more glorification of Hydaelyn or celebration of the sundering, please.

[MikkoAkure]

When did we get Elidibus' POV in the tales? Afaik he hasnt gotten anything of the sort. We're just told he exited Zodiark to help mediate, we arent actually shown his pov in any of this.

Ah, the scene from "Ere Our Curtain Falls" was another Emet-Selch one about Elidibus. I misremembered that as being from his point of view.

Also can i ask for a source on the convocation "rarely if ever leaving amaurot?" Because i dont recall that ever being mentioned and Lahabrea kind of contradicts that seeing as Pandaemonium exists. Seems like headcanon to me.

Hythlodaeus points out during Elpis that Emet-Selch travelled Etheirys as well, helping others without ever expecting gratitude or praise in return. So Venat certainly wasn't unique in terms of actually walking amongst her people - though she certainly seemed to delude herself into thinking as such. It was never explicitly stated whether the other members of the Convocation travelled as well and to the same extent but I daresay it's a safe bet that they did to a decent degree.

Hytholodeus said that the others sat in Amaurot while the seat of Azem's role was to wander the world as the traveler and help people. Even if the others visited, that wasn't their main purpose and didn't do it to the same extent. The people Emet-Selch helped were from when he was Hades and before he was on the Convocation and we have no further insight into it except that it was "people the world over" but mostly Azem.

Among all the offices, the Fourteenth was most unusual. For while the rest sat in Amaurot, its holder was charged with gaining an intimate knowledge of the wider world.
In the course of her duty, she traveled the length and breadth of every land, and befriended countless folk.
She encountered troubles too, of course. Matters which she could simply have referred to the Convocation. But that was not her way.

And Azem, traveler of the world and counselor to the people.

You travel often, then? It seems we have something in common.
Long ago, when I held the seat of Azem, I was forever trekking back and forth across the star in search of answers to people's problems.

'Tis a rest well deserved and long overdue, I should think. How greatly have we prospered for the wisdom you accumulated during your travels as Azem.

[Lunaxia]

snip

Ah, Hyth's quote was the one I was thinking of! I distinctly remembered it being said the Convocation more or less never ventured forth from Amaurot, but felt it was rather pointless to post without recalling where. I was wondering if Yoshi had dropped it in an interview.

I'm far from a fan of Venat, but it's grasping at straws trying to compare what at most would have been occasional work trips for the Convocation to what was essentially not only a job but a way of life to anyone in the seat of Azem.

[Lauront]

Hytholodeus said that the others sat in Amaurot while the seat of Azem's role was to wander the world as the traveler and help people. Even if the others visited, that wasn't their main purpose and didn't do it to the same extent. The people Emet-Selch helped were from when he was Hades and before he was on the Convocation and we have no further insight into it except that it was "people the world over" but mostly Azem.

Sure, but again, that's just from the point of view of the seat's duties. I agree with the rest but to me it's a big so what, especially since all Convocation members had lives that may have taken them all over the star before their ascent, and in some cases, they may well have done travelling in addition to their other duties. If anything, all the traits Emet is praising her for meant she had all the more to live up to and her inability or unwillingness to relay the truth to her people is all the worse for it.

I only hope at this point they keep the PC Azem distant from her and don't have them partake of her plans to sunder the world, as that will be the final nail in the coffin for me. I don't want them to have anything to do with it.

Uh, lets give people their choices shall we? 14's story is but one of many problems. The game's gameplay has been incredibly lacking and the healer role has been ignored for 6+ years. Personally i am excitingly waiting for Ashes as it seems to be offering everything ive ever wanted in an mmo. As for story or lore im going to assume you havent looked much into the game because its very rich in lore so far from what we can see. Its similar to the Souls franchise however where they dont seem to give you explicit answers on things, its up to you to search and put the puzzle pieces together yourself and come to lore conclusions.

Yeah, I don't get it either. Can't say the story direction of this game enthuses me much. I'm not sure what it is exactly I would be missing out on from hopping over to Ashes at this point.

[...]

Thank you for articulating in words my shared hatred of this particular headcanon.