"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

[QooEr]

It's all or nothing, otherwise players would categorize them as raid and non-raid jobs and SE wants every job to be invited to content. Or, if a job was just harder to play for no benefit then people would avoid that job and SE also wants to prevent that.

the only reason jobs have historically not been invited has been because jobs underperform, not because theyre simple.
your second point is bs because who like that play style would play it. theres 19 jobs, enough to cater to a ton of different playstyle preferences. theres also always going to be a most played and least played job.

[Shougun]

and not all jobs need to be needlessly simple for the sake of it

besides, a not-insignificant subset of the playerbase isnt casual. the vast majority isnt 100%, so why should 100% of the jobs cater to them?

But I make up the majority so, it's okay !


(jk) lol.

Though- I don't agree with purposefully making substantial differences in OUTPUT of a job given difficulty, which I have seen is a suggestion here, but I do agree some jobs should cater to different types of players. Like, particularly OG Black Mage (less true now...), with black mage it paid to know the fights, or Paladin having understanding of certain abilities could time their defenses extremely well meanwhile some other tanks might have been more reactive kits.

[anhaato]

Not all Jobs need to be needlessly complicated just for the sake of it.

Besides, most FF14 players are casual. I don't see Square appealing to a severe minority at the cost of the vast majority.

“Severe minority” when a large number of servers get upwards of 30% of their population doing savage. Lol. And if you’re a hypercasual, why would a job being complicated matter to you anyway? You wouldn’t be doing any content that requires optimization to begin with.

[Imora]

Play Sage then.

They did it before, they can do it again.

[anhaato]

They did it before, they can do it again.

And they did. On sage.

[Nizzi]

They did it before, they can do it again.

They made it more of a DPS gain this expac than it was last expac, but they made Sage for people who don't like it. Sounds like you've got your solution right there.

[Lubu_Mykono]

Rotations should be optimal inside macros, change my mind.

[pikalovr]

Rotations should be optimal inside macros, change my mind.

funny part is if you could make a macro command to turn your camera in game you could in theory macro an entire savage fight. if it wasn't for the fact you can't chain macros without plugins that is but yes with out current macro system you could theoretically do that

[Renathras]

They won't fail more content than now. People who can clear EX/Savage as a healer will still be able to do so with more complex rotation. People who can't handle more complex rotation have in first nothing to do in such content at the start.

Which is it? They won't fail more content than now, or they WILL fail more content now unless they can "handle" more complex rotations? You straight up rejected your own position when you said "People who can't handle...(have) nothing to do in such content". You're basically saying people don't DESERVE to do the content unless they do a more complex rotation, which by definition means the people not doing so WILL fail more content than now. (Aside: All you beating me over the head for my elitist remark, here's yet another example of it...)

Moreover, while many who do such content might be able to adjust - which is what you're saying - what if they don't really WANT to? What if they don't ENJOY DPS rotations? What if the reason they play healers is because they don't enjoy DPS rotations, and healer is the only role in the game that lets them play without DPS rotations? What then?

And healer must have a same level of complexity, you can't keep up the bottom complexity of an actual healer and increase the others, that's not really a good idea.

Why?

You say it's not a good idea...why not?

Because people will pick the simpler ones because they're easier to play, thus showing that those of you who like complex are the minority? Or because you'd be worried people wouldn't bring you on your complex Job to their parties? Why is this bad, EXACTLY?

The difficulty will increase for people who CARES, that's all.

You JUST SAID that people who "don't care" will not be able to do content, and people who DO care to do Extremes/Savages on any level will have to change.

THE DIFFICULTY WILL INCREASE.

That's literally what I've been saying. It will increase for everyone, because anyone not doing it will be "badz", and you know it. This is all I'm trying to point out to you: There is no way to make all healers more complex in terms of DPS kits that does not, by any definition of the word, make them more difficult. More complex by necessity makes them more difficult. HOWEVER, making some (2-3) more difficult while leaving some (2 or even just 1) simple like now is the solution. It gives those of you that want complex something complex to entertain you, while not excluding people from the content that like healing as it is today.

The only thing to lose is that you have to give up the elitist desire that people playing easier Jobs get to clear the content you want to be exclusively for you...

EDIT:

Cool strawman, the more complex healer(s) could do less damage and I would play them. The only healer that even approaches interesting atm is AST. The healer with the lowest average rDPS in Savage atm is AST. I'll give you one guess as to which healer I play the most.

That's great, but you seem to be in the minority, looking at the other replies here insisting that NO healer can be left simple and they ALL must be changed. If you actually read my post - which it seems you did because of your canard at the end, but at the same time, it seems overall you did not - you might have seen the several times I mentioned that we can and should make 2-3 of the healers more complex while leaving 2-1 as they are today, which would achieve what you're asking for, would it not?

Not all Jobs need to be needlessly complicated just for the sake of it.

Besides, most FF14 players are casual. I don't see Square appealing to a severe minority at the cost of the vast majority.

This. Very much this.

and not all jobs need to be needlessly simple for the sake of it

besides, a not-insignificant subset of the playerbase isnt casual. the vast majority isnt 100%, so why should 100% of the jobs cater to them?

The thing is, when people suggest making SOME Jobs more complex but leaving SOME simple, those people are shot down by the demands that EVERY Job must be complex or it wouldn't be fair to the people wanting complex Jobs...somehow. For example:

It's all or nothing, otherwise players would categorize them as raid and non-raid jobs and SE wants every job to be invited to content. Or, if a job was just harder to play for no benefit then people would avoid that job and SE also wants to prevent that.

.

Though- I don't agree with purposefully making substantial differences in OUTPUT of a job given difficulty, which I have seen is a suggestion here, but I do agree some jobs should cater to different types of players. Like, particularly OG Black Mage (less true now...), with black mage it paid to know the fights, or Paladin having understanding of certain abilities could time their defenses extremely well meanwhile some other tanks might have been more reactive kits.

Agree 100% with this. The thinnest roles still have 3 members (Ranged, Caster). Tanks and Healers have 4 each, and Melee 5. There's no reason we can't have a spread. The only role that really does right now are Tanks, with WAR being simple, PLD being rigid with lots of optimization options, and GNB and DRK being varying levels of challenge in their own ways, with GNB playing more like a DPS already. Oddly, it's the only role that really does this. Ranged are all different flavors of "mostly easy", Casters has a decent spread of easy (SMN), moderate (RDM), and hard (BLM), though there's a bit of a jump from RDM to BLM. And Healers (at least their damage kits) and Melee are more uniform with Healers' damage being simple and Melees not really having a "simple" option.

With all the Jobs we have, it should be more than possible to have a spread in each role so that players can gravitate to what playstyle they like best.

“Severe minority” when a large number of servers get upwards of 30% of their population doing savage. Lol. And if you’re a hypercasual, why would a job being complicated matter to you anyway? You wouldn’t be doing any content that requires optimization to begin with.

A lot of people do Savage that don't want complex Jobs, though. I've been farming P1S for a bit now and P2S when I felt more frisky, and this is the first tier I've ever tried Savage. So even in that 30% are many people that don't want needless complexity in Jobs. But, again, this is why my personal preference is to make 2 or 3 of the healers more complex while keeping 2 or 1 simple as they are now.

[Kuritzkale]

SCHOOL ESSAY

Why do you write so much stuff when you just fundamentally misunderstand what people are asking for? I'm pretty sure there isn't a single person in this thread saying every job needs to be complex, and other people have said as much...

That being said, let's keep the thread going, yeah?