6.2 Hrothgar Update

[Vahlnir]

Yeah, and I'm telling you there is a quote, it should be in the big hrothgar thread, of Yoshida saying he said they weren't going to get any hairs, and I am also pretty sure they might have said what you are showing was a "mistranslation" - at least that's what people were saying.

Yeah, it definitely should be posted there. The screen with Zepla, along with the official forum post.

[Kelev]

Yeah, and I'm telling you there is a quote, it should be in the big hrothgar thread, of Yoshida saying he said they weren't going to get any hairs, and I am also pretty sure they might have said what you are showing was a "mistranslation" - at least that's what people were saying.

And I'm telling you if I cite my source, and you don't, and that's the official translation that was posted here, then like in the two other threads where you've posted this exact response, I'm going to tell you the same thing I did there:

He said it. As evidence I'll offer my screen shot, the link, the fact that you've said this before, to me, and the fact that there are now (bad) hairstyles which he has acknowledged are not what the community wants.

So, even if you were right - and you're not - and posted evidence - and you didn't - a difference that makes no difference is no difference - they're out there and they suck. You can tell me all you want that hats weren't promised - they weren't, and we can talk about our feelings on the matter until we're blue in the face. But regarding hair:

He said it. Maybe he forgot. Maybe he hoped we'd forget. Maybe he remembered, and eventually realized "Oh, damn, I did actually promise those guys something, but after three years of neglect, this is harder than I thought."

So even if you show me 92 articles where he said he never said it, or stick to your previous tactic, and say a bunch more opinions you don't bother to back up because what you feel inside is more important, or even if you reference a "translation error" where you don't happen to speak Japanese either, or say "that's what people were saying," I'm going to go with what the recorded words that have blessed by the staff at SquareEnix because say what you will about their treatment of any group? I think we can all agree their localization team is slammin'.

Would you like to try a third time here, or is two enough? Or do the times you said it in previous threads count here too, in reply to me, where you still didn't back it up, and you've already had your three times?

-Kelly

[Aelsioln]

Yeah, and I'm telling you there is a quote, it should be in the big hrothgar thread, of Yoshida saying he said they weren't going to get any hairs, and I am also pretty sure they might have said what you are showing was a "mistranslation" - at least that's what people were saying.

Proof? If this quote you keep bringing up exists then you should be able to find it and share it with everyone.

If it was a "mistranslation" they would have addressed that and clarified.

[SturmChurro]

Seriously? I don't think people are understanding my intent right now - other than Vahlnir. I was being sarcastic and joking around. It's why I used emojis. I fully acknowledge that past quote, but what I am saying is Yoshida has seemingly forgotten or outright said the complete opposite this year. If you really want me to search through the big hrothgar thread to pull up newer quotes of him where he said he said they weren't going to receive any hair previously, or the discussions around that original quote being a supposed "mistranslation" I will.

The only thing I was saying was that they were clearly not intended to be updated upon their creation, regardless of what was said back then. They were in their 'complete' state, and that's why they could design them the way they did. Yoshida might have said they would receive hair, but their design, and original intent clearly doesn't line up with that statement, in my opinion. I have remained firm for years, that hrothgar are "finished" - to SE. Them being in "beta" implies that they considered them unfinished.

[XiRon]

Seriously? I don't think people are understanding my intent right now - other than Vahlnir. I was being sarcastic and joking around. It's why I used emojis. I fully acknowledge that past quote, but what I am saying is Yoshida has seemingly forgotten or outright said the complete opposite this year. If you really want me to search through the big hrothgar thread to pull up newer quotes of him where he said he said they weren't going to receive any hair previously, or the discussions around that original quote being a supposed "mistranslation" I will.

The only thing I was saying was that they were clearly not intended to be updated upon their creation, regardless of what was said back then. They were in their 'complete' state, and that's why they could design them the way they did. Yoshida might have said they would receive hair, but their design, and original intent clearly doesn't line up with that statement, in my opinion. I have remained firm for years, that hrothgar are "finished" - to SE. Them being in "beta" implies that they considered them unfinished.

The problem with that line of thinking is they clearly didn't. Or some programmers didn't because they had to break into SE hq in the middle of the night to allow hrothgar and viera ANY headgear whatsoever rather than just accept Yoships original intent of purposefully screwing those races out of an entire gear slot.
It also makes no sense. How could any developer just sit there and be like "Oh hey fans, we made a new race for our game! Also the new race can never do anything besides what you do at Character Creation, isn't that neat!" and expect fans to just be fine with that? If a hrothgar pops a modern aesthete it still says "New hair options available", not "Hey numbnuts, go buy a fantasia and play a race we actually deign to care about".
So developer intent doesn't matter, not when you and me and he and she and they and GOD KNOW nobody would ever want to play a race that they can't do anything with to set it apart from ingame premade npcs. Thats mind-bogglingly stupid and if that were in fact the intent they should've made Hrothgar a beast race a la Vanu Vanu or Lupin wherein none of them look at all different from one another instead of a player race. But its a player race, and players like options, and they know that. They just decided hrothgar and their players are not WORTH creating options for.

[Kelev]

If you really want me to search through the big hrothgar thread to pull up newer quotes of him where he said he said they weren't going to receive any hair previously, or the discussions around that original quote being a supposed "mistranslation" I will.

That's fine. My apologies on misunderstanding your sarcasm. Sometimes my sarcasm detector doesn't work, and people saying "you guys aren't supposed to get haircuts" raises my hackles (pun intended).

You don't need to find the thing. I've read Zhexos' reply many times. Mostly when I'm wondering if he got sucked out an airlock somewhere.

Hrothgar aren't finished to SE. Or, at least they shouldn't be. When a developer says "unorthodox methods," what that *historically* means is "we hacked something together we were intending to standardize later." That's what I mean by "beta" - they're full of kludges, and design decisions that make these things difficult to modify later. In addition, they're unfinished from the standpoint that the end implementation is not what the specification says. Maybe they're saying it now, but if you look at what makes a beta a beta, and what makes early access early access:

1) Not all features are implemented.
2) There are problems we know about.
3) We're still working through design issues.
4) People outside the company are using/testing the code.

Saying "When I initially designed Hrothgar I said no hairs" doesn't undo Live Letter 53. It doesn't mean he forgot. So even Zhexos' post doesn't say that. In fact, I can find no reference to him ever saying at announcement "There will be no additional hairs for Hrothgar ever." So sarcasm and my middle age bluster aside, he's going to have to cite his source too.

The haircuts, ears, no ears - are buggy. And clipping has been the excuse for not implementing more things, but they've always clipped. Look at Radomil's collar sometime. Half the gunbreaker trainer's mullet is clipping through his class armor. The Ronso horn punches through the new hairstyles. They don't stick to the skull.

And what, personally, I have asked for, is the allowance to use all of the hairstyles released with Hrothgar, and all the ear types - the features that were included with every other race and indicate that the modeling is, in fact, done. That modularity is, I would argue, what differentiates "early access" from "done." The Viera came with these features. The Hrothgar did not.

Because they've not been implemented. Hrothgar are unfinished by my estimation, and if the trouble they're having now is any indication, I think they'd agree.
That's beta/early access.

Finish the race.

-Kelly

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Seriously? I don't think people are understanding my intent right now - other than Vahlnir. I was being sarcastic and joking around. It's why I used emojis. I fully acknowledge that past quote, but what I am saying is Yoshida has seemingly forgotten or outright said the complete opposite this year. If you really want me to search through the big hrothgar thread to pull up newer quotes of him where he said he said they weren't going to receive any hair previously, or the discussions around that original quote being a supposed "mistranslation" I will.

The only thing I was saying was that they were clearly not intended to be updated upon their creation, regardless of what was said back then. They were in their 'complete' state, and that's why they could design them the way they did. Yoshida might have said they would receive hair, but their design, and original intent clearly doesn't line up with that statement, in my opinion. I have remained firm for years, that hrothgar are "finished" - to SE. Them being in "beta" implies that they considered them unfinished.

So are you going to, after being asked to...or are you just gonna keep saying that you will do it, and never do it?
Like, I dont think thats real at all, so I would love to see proof of that.
Because, that makes no sense at all to release Hrothgar in the state that its in, and deam them "Finished" with only 1 Gender Option, and the lack of options; the inability to wear most headgerar, the lack of hair options, and then say Dont worry the Hrothgar will see updates.

The Outrage for these things shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, Devs, playerbase, onlookers etc.
It makes more sense to say they had to cut corners with the Creation of Hrothgar, because they said They just barley got both The Viera and the Hrothgar done at the same time. But I dont believe for a second they would just call it good and think everybody would be happy and have Zero plans of making fixes and making needed additions tot he Hrothgar.
If it was mistranslated that there were plans for these New Hairs (which there IS proof of new hairs in the making), and there is proof that No New Hairs were coming, Id love to see it.

[SturmChurro]

The problem with that line of thinking is they clearly didn't. Or some programmers didn't because they had to break into SE hq in the middle of the night to allow hrothgar and viera ANY headgear whatsoever rather than just accept Yoships original intent of purposefully screwing those races out of an entire gear slot.
It also makes no sense. How could any developer just sit there and be like "Oh hey fans, we made a new race for our game! Also the new race can never do anything besides what you do at Character Creation, isn't that neat!" and expect fans to just be fine with that? If a hrothgar pops a modern aesthete it still says "New hair options available", not "Hey numbnuts, go buy a fantasia and play a race we actually deign to care about".
So developer intent doesn't matter, not when you and me and he and she and they and GOD KNOW nobody would ever want to play a race that they can't do anything with to set it apart from ingame premade npcs. Thats mind-bogglingly stupid and if that were in fact the intent they should've made Hrothgar a beast race a la Vanu Vanu or Lupin wherein none of them look at all different from one another instead of a player race.

Yeah, some devs might have thought the original design was not enough (no headgear whatsoever), but that doesn't change the intent from higher up: the decision maker(s). Like you say, they were originally intended to not have anything - not even headgear. In my opinion, the intent was clearly that hrothgar are a novelty race. To make the race look more unique, the choice was made to make their development so convoluted - which has now led to the current issues, making them difficult to update. Like I have stated, having them so difficult to update doesn't matter if they never intended on updating them in the first place. Anyway, the thing about hairstyles is, they are just a bonus to a race. A hairstyle isn't really "finishing" a race in the first place.

They just decided hrothgar and their players are not WORTH creating options for.

I do not believe that - well, nowadays probably, yes, but originally Yoshida said this was probably the "last chance" they would have to make player races. I have said before on these forums, that I think FFXIV's future was more suspect at that time. I don't think they had their ten year plan greenlit, or anything else. Originally, they might have actually had good intentions. As the "last chance" to add races, Yoshida wanted to add a beast race for players who like that kind of thing, and Viera a fan favorite, and heavily requested race. Compromises were made to allow their creation without adversely affecting their patch schedule (as he has stated).

[Kelev]

This is what I have as a timeline for all the official communications for Hrothgar hair updates:



This is not my work, but rather the illustrious and praiseworthy Sorren. Who, incidentally, couldn't find the "We said no hair" thing either.

-Kelly

PS: When I say I've done my homework on this issue, my husband has threatened me with a divorce if I mention Hrothgar hair in the house. He is, however, a Roegadyn, so I just tell him that he's a shaved Hrothgar with really, really good posture. I always, always, at my most passionate, angry, or disappointed moments, still try to stick to the truth. I don't ever want anyone saying "Kel's reading Convenient Theories For You Monthly Magazine again..."

[SturmChurro]

...

The thing is I completely agree that they are in a bad state, and the comment about him saying he said they wouldn't receive any hair, when he clearly said they were during ShB is really.. odd. Especially when there are official quotes all over the place, saying they would get hairs. You can find quotes of me from when that was said, confused, trying to figure out when and where he supposedly said they weren't getting hairstyles. I played viera, on their launch, and have switched back and forth to viera for the past few years hoping for our supposed hair update. We all trusted that quote by Yoshida. Obviously, hrothgar have it worse, but it's not like I am not also bitter about it. When they do update these races, the quality is pretty much objectively bad across the board.

...

Are you talking about the quote I'm talking about of him saying he said they weren't going to get hairstyles previously? I promise you there is a real quote. That hrothgar hair thread is HUGE(!), I suppose I didn't come prepared to "cite my sources" when I was making fun little replies, but I am telling you there is a quote of him saying that. The mistranslation thing I am not 100% sure if he said that, but I know people were talking about it quite a bit as well.

They literally said on release that it was the "last chance" for player races, and that they were to be 'gender locked'. Just because some people's definition of finished is both sexes, doesn't mean that is theirs.