Healers need an overhaul

[Silver-Strider]

Was simply noting that there are, technically, ways to give supports something to do that affects long-term objectives or constraints, even in fights that are given timers and/or completed by damage, besides just damage.

Such is not a critique of damage nor praise for 1.x.... Not sure why you'd construe it as such.

Wasn't trying to say that you were praising 1.x, just commenting that there were many questionable features from 1.x that wouldn't translate well in the game now. Could they work if given enough time and polish? Sure but given how the game is ATM, do you believe that they will be given the time and polish to be done right? Probably not.

[Shurrikhan]

Sure but given how the game is ATM, do you believe that they will be given the time and polish to be done right? Probably not.

I trust the devs with almost nothing, but that's largely besides the point; else we wouldn't have threads like this in the first place.

It was a spitball example of an addendum in either case. I wasn't suggesting a return to any 1.x mechanic; I merely used that example because it's the last time anyone could manipulate mob behavior beyond whom the mob was targeting and could thereby work against longer-term constraints in meaningful, interesting ways beyond just "kill[ing] it dead."

For now, if the devs are wholly unwilling to increase relative healing requirements, then any and all improvement will fall under improving our non-healing/downtime play.

Though nearly other support functions have been removed from healers, so too have been dps skills beyond their absolute minimum threshold, in turn (leaving only a DoT each, Phlegma, Pnuema, and Misery* across the whole role beyond their fillers). Other ways of playing into that downtime --such as via utility-- then, are just about as feasible as a return to more sophisticated kits, and a return to one would as easily precedent a return to the other.

And as much as I want back a more fleshed out offensive kit (some 3-5 such ST spells in place of 2-3), as a healer I certainly wouldn't be against ways of contributing towards long-term objectives or against long-term constraints beyond just damage.

[Lilapop]

It's not the healing that's stressing these sorts of players out though. Simply coping with mechanics even in simple content like 24 man raids is more than some can handle, pressing just about anything whilst trying to keep a tab on what's happening around them is beyond some some players.

This is compounded by the fact that this game arguably goes too far in coddling such a low standard of play, I'm not talking about people who simply don't DPS, I'm talking about people who struggle to press more than a button every 10 seconds or so in casual content. The game makes it far too easy to get right up to the door of Extreme and Savage content without ever making even the slightest bit of effort to understand your kit or even the concept of your job in general. Instead it just apologetically shoves more gear and easier modes your way until eventually you manage to crawl over the ripple in the pavement that is this game's casual challenge curve.

Tuning the game and making balance decisions around this kind of player is just daft because short of having a stance with an aoe medica II aura around them, they'll never not be stressed as a healer. It's just that it's more obvious to everyone around them when they are on a healer, DPS is basically irrelevant outside of Extremes and above and Tanks can practically /beesknees for agro at this point.

yeah, but making it easy to walk right up to the doors of extreme/savage content and performing well in that tier aren't the same. getting up there for sure is easier than actually being IN there. personally it being easy to GET there is fine. but is it easy to participate within? (well, depends on the op veteran pro you ask) but assuming it's not as easy as casual content, they'll have to learn to use their full kit either before the content or within the content which is.. probably not ideal for those who are already there... but that seems to be where we're at unless i forgot something.

[Lilapop]

snip

the same could be argued of any game... kill X before X kills you. a redundant argument; healer quests and any solo instances require some type of damage from the healer, yes. but a little chunk of damage =/= healers being dps in all but name. healers do have too many "HEAL" and not enough "OTHER". we just seem to disagree on what "OTHER" should be, i guess. but it's not unreasonable to.. outsource dps duties to dps and tank duties to tanks.. seems like they were outsourced to healers to begin with. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying healers should 0 damage whatsoever, that'd just be counterproductive. but current kits being able to out dps actual dps classes, and still want more dps? really?

so lemme get this straight... you, we'll call you "veterans", are asking for your old "outsourced" toolkit back, and the new people are saying "nah we like it as is"... and new people are unaware of how the class was before. but how the class was before is irrelevant if people like the class how it currently is now. so i have to ask, since that seems to be the vibes i'm getting from that list bit, what makes the opinion of people who want their old kit "superior" to those who are happy with how the class plays now? clearly the devs favor the latter and not the former, and there ARE in fact people who prefer it how it is now. ++ it seems the veterans are unwilling to accept the newbies opinion on the class, while saying their opinion is the "better" and "correct" way for the class to run?

[Payotz]

yeah, but making it easy to walk right up to the doors of extreme/savage content and performing well in that tier aren't the same. getting up there for sure is easier than actually being IN there. personally it being easy to GET there is fine. but is it easy to participate within? (well, depends on the op veteran pro you ask) but assuming it's not as easy as casual content, they'll have to learn to use their full kit either before the content or within the content which is.. probably not ideal for those who are already there... but that seems to be where we're at unless i forgot something.

Uhh, you don't have to perform well in Savage to clear. You just have to perform the bare minimum. Not every person in a Savage pug party is the best of the best, I assure you.
The only period in time where that's even remotely true is during the first few weeks of Savage, but the moment catch up and the new EX comes around, then the tier gets significantly easier.

The skill floor is as low as it's ever been, and even if very few people can't reach the skill floor, that's no reason to force the skill ceiling and skill floor to be one and the same.
Increasing the skill ceiling of healers, by giving them more potential buttons to press for dps isn't going to raise the skill floor. It's not going to affect the baby healer's first time clear which they're gonna be doing by pressing a dot every 30 seconds.

What it's going to affect is that baby healer's potential. He/She's gonna be more confident to utilize their whole kit as they raid, and they're gonna need plenty of room to grow and be satisfied as a healer, not be forced to play as if they've been stuck on the skill floor with no potential to improve and to express their skill.

They don't need to be smothered by people who refuses to raise the skill ceiling, just because they don't want themselves to reach the skill ceiling.
Mostly everyone that has an interest in Savage and Ultimates has an interest in reaching the skill ceiling, so why refuse them that option?

[Sebazy]

yeah, but making it easy to walk right up to the doors of extreme/savage content and performing well in that tier aren't the same. getting up there for sure is easier than actually being IN there. personally it being easy to GET there is fine. but is it easy to participate within? (well, depends on the op veteran pro you ask) but assuming it's not as easy as casual content, they'll have to learn to use their full kit either before the content or within the content which is.. probably not ideal for those who are already there... but that seems to be where we're at unless i forgot something.

I disagree there, primarily because there's no curve to the difficulty whatsoever. If anything leveling dungeons are routinely more challenging than 'expert' dungeons. You hit the end game, start gearing up and the challenge and personal responsibility evaporates to the point where the only way to truly fail in the the sort of content you'll do as you gear up is to fail so spectacularly that your group makes the effort to kick you.

And then Extremes happen.

You switch instantly from having very little responsibility or bearing on how things progress to outright causing wipes, having people chewing you out and generally having very little idea what on earth just happened. The game makes no effort whatsoever to prepare you or set your expectations of what's to come. You just faceplant into a whopping difficulty spike. When something like the first pull of Bardams is a better training ground for a healer than anything Aglaia throws at you then there's something fundamentally wrong with the design of this game. It's really no surprise that so many people quickly develop a near pathological hatred of raiders and the raid scene in general.

so lemme get this straight... you, we'll call you "veterans", are asking for your old "outsourced" toolkit back, and the new people are saying "nah we like it as is"... and new people are unaware of how the class was before. but how the class was before is irrelevant if people like the class how it currently is now. so i have to ask, since that seems to be the vibes i'm getting from that list bit, what makes the opinion of people who want their old kit "superior" to those who are happy with how the class plays now? clearly the devs favor the latter and not the former, and there ARE in fact people who prefer it how it is now. ++ it seems the veterans are unwilling to accept the newbies opinion on the class, while saying their opinion is the "better" and "correct" way for the class to run?

The solution here is to give players the choice with some legitimate variety within the role. Right now the choice boils down to if you want to give yourself RSI every 2 minutes or not. Outside of that there's very little variation within the gameplay of the healers outside of Savage and Ultimate.

[IDontPetLalas]

the same could be argued of any game... kill X before X kills you. a redundant argument; healer quests and any solo instances require some type of damage from the healer, yes. but a little chunk of damage =/= healers being dps in all but name. healers do have too many "HEAL" and not enough "OTHER". we just seem to disagree on what "OTHER" should be, i guess. but it's not unreasonable to.. outsource dps duties to dps and tank duties to tanks.. seems like they were outsourced to healers to begin with. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying healers should 0 damage whatsoever, that'd just be counterproductive. but current kits being able to out dps actual dps classes, and still want more dps? really?

so lemme get this straight... you, we'll call you "veterans", are asking for your old "outsourced" toolkit back, and the new people are saying "nah we like it as is"... and new people are unaware of how the class was before. but how the class was before is irrelevant if people like the class how it currently is now. so i have to ask, since that seems to be the vibes i'm getting from that list bit, what makes the opinion of people who want their old kit "superior" to those who are happy with how the class plays now? clearly the devs favor the latter and not the former, and there ARE in fact people who prefer it how it is now. ++ it seems the veterans are unwilling to accept the newbies opinion on the class, while saying their opinion is the "better" and "correct" way for the class to run?

Who said that all new healers like healing the way it is now? How do you know that some new healers haven't healed in other games , and would like some changes? Or, for that matter, that some veterans like it just fine (although some metrics would suggest otherwise- but I'll concede that it's difficult to know)
Why are some of the prior skills that were removed irrelevant to this discussion? I don't think that it's irrelevant to review those decisions. Are you saying that development teams never make mistakes? If so, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
Why are you now diverting the discussion into veterans versus "newbies" and once again your presumption of some "vibe" that no one else gets -in this case around superiority, or "newbies" vs veterans - unless once again- you do post in order to start arguments that won't really achieve anything?

Finally..your statement about outsoourcing..is just ..ludicrous. Yes I"m talking about " it's not unreasonable to.. outsource dps duties to dps and tank duties to tanks.. seems like they were outsourced to healers to begin" Once again, repeating a fallacy over and over does not make it a sound nor a valid argument. Can you provide examples or not? I think not.

[Lubu_Mykono]

Give me 1 DPS focused healer that has to DPS more than heal.
When you find raid groups complaining that they can't get a 2nd healer you will realise the error of your ways.

[Lilapop]

Who said that all new healers like healing the way it is now? How do you know that some new healers haven't healed in other games , and would like some changes? Or, for that matter, that some veterans like it just fine (although some metrics would suggest otherwise- but I'll concede that it's difficult to know)
Why are some of the prior skills that were removed irrelevant to this discussion? I don't think that it's irrelevant to review those decisions. Are you saying that development teams never make mistakes? If so, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
Why are you now diverting the discussion into veterans versus "newbies" and once again your presumption of some "vibe" that no one else gets -in this case around superiority, or "newbies" vs veterans - unless once again- you do post in order to start arguments that won't really achieve anything?

Finally..your statement about outsoourcing..is just ..ludicrous. Yes I"m talking about " it's not unreasonable to.. outsource dps duties to dps and tank duties to tanks.. seems like they were outsourced to healers to begin" Once again, repeating a fallacy over and over does not make it a sound nor a valid argument. Can you provide examples or not? I think not.

I said previous now removed spells are irrelevant since people who started playing as a healer after the fact didn't experience those spells to begin with? because how would people weigh in on content they simply didn't play before and have no way of playing now to have a sound opinion on it? pretty sure I stated multiple times that the current state of healers isn't good, but it's what we have, implying that I do think the team is very much capable of making a mistake. it's implied that the people who played the class back then want it back to how it used to be with more dps involvement, implying they've been around long enough to be called "veterans" of at least healing if nothing else. newbies implying people who only know the current style of play, and often across this thread there have been people believing people who enjoy the latter style of playing as simply incompetent.

it's very unlikely anything in this entire thread will change anything, considering that the developers are clearly happy with the direction they're going. that point is rather moot, considering not a single one of us appears to be changing anything at all.

if you don't understand what I'm saying, you can ask me to explain it again.

[Semirhage]

The solution here is to give players the choice with some legitimate variety within the role. Right now the choice boils down to if you want to give yourself RSI every 2 minutes or not. Outside of that there's very little variation within the gameplay of the healers outside of Savage and Ultimate.

I wouldn't consider how healers are currently designed to be "gameplay". Variety is great, but I don't think "one is designed with the Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare slop that we have now, and the rest are varied and interesting" to be actual variety. Make them all well-designed. I don't care if the Sylphies think spamming one button over and over and over again is "fun". It's not.