Healers need an overhaul

[IDontPetLalas]

that's stressful? it's stressful for healers to... heal in dungeons? and yet healers want... more things to do to stress them out even more when their primary goal is a stress factor? confusion. maybe if... teamwork... was applied to keep the healer alive, this wouldn't be a problem. this is a foreign concept in this game for some reason. don't see why healers are expected to be dps/support/with enough hp to practically tank all in one? there are too many healer buttons, which is about the only thing in this little chunk that makes any sense. if you see someone telling one of these "bad habits" why don't you step in and correct them, then? though personally, i haven't seen anyone say "oh just curespam the tank and they'll be fine" at all. anyone who is curespamming simply isn't aware of how to utilize the rest of their kit and figures that they can barely get by with it, and they can. so why would they change if its working for them? there's no motivation to do so.

You're being obtuse now. I really believe that you are purposely in the "throw something at the wall and see if it sticks" phase of someone who sees that they aren't convincing others. Or worse, trying to muddy the waters and stir up arguments.

Because I would really be interested in seeing examples of where people were calling healer DPS/support tanks. Or where healers actually stated "oh if you add a DPS button I will be experiencing more stress".

[Lilapop]

You're being obtuse now. I really believe that you are purposely in the "throw something at the wall and see if it sticks" phase of someone who sees that they aren't convincing others. Or worse, trying to muddy the waters and stir up arguments.

Because I would really be interested in seeing examples of where people were calling healer DPS/support tanks. Or where healers actually stated "oh if you add a DPS button I will be experiencing more stress".

you can think what you want, you have your opinion, i have mine. agree to disagree would be fine.

you want to see examples of people calling healers dps? this thread? wanting more dps properties and less healing? go back and read through it if you haven't yet. it's implied, that if a healer can't manage healing alone, in what world is it logical to assume if we add dps to the mix that they'll suddenly be able to manage both that and healing, when one of the main issues is healers spamming cure? that line of thinking makes no sense whatsoever.

[IDontPetLalas]

you can think what you want, you have your opinion, i have mine. agree to disagree would be fine.

you want to see examples of people calling healers dps? this thread? wanting more dps properties and less healing? go back and read through it if you haven't yet. it's implied, that if a healer can't manage healing alone, in what world is it logical to assume if we add dps to the mix that they'll suddenly be able to manage both that and healing, when one of the main issues is healers spamming cure? that line of thinking makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't need to go back and read through this thread, perhaps you should read your own post - you said that healers were DPS, support PLUS "with enough HP to practically tank all in one" that is your post. No one else has claimed that healers are like that, it would actually be fairer, in some contexts, to describe warriors or even paladins as that strong.

In addition, if you implied that healers can't handle healing alone- then you made that implication.

Finally, we aren't "adding DPS to the mix" as healers already DPS. One of the options that has been propose (there are others) is adjusting how healers DPS. Please go back and read some of the many posts and threads on this.

[Lilapop]

I don't need to go back and read through this thread, perhaps you should read your own post - you said that healers were DPS, support PLUS "with enough HP to practically tank all in one" that is your post. No one else has claimed that healers are like that, it would actually be fairer, in some contexts, to describe warriors or even paladins as that strong.

In addition, if you implied that healers can't handle healing alone- then you made that implication.

Finally, we aren't "adding DPS to the mix" as healers already DPS. One of the options that has been propose (there are others) is adjusting how healers DPS. Please go back and read some of the many posts and threads on this.

healers ALREADY being dps is one of the problems? it was implied in the original post of whoever posted it, healing stresses out healers. so why on earth would it make sense to pile more on what they already can't manage?

[IDontPetLalas]

healers ALREADY being dps is one of the problems? it was implied in the original post of whoever posted it, healing stresses out healers. so why on earth would it make sense to pile more on what they already can't manage?

Nothing of that kind was implied in OP's post - first paragraph:

"I have a great respect for FFXIV and the devs that create it but I feel like the design of healers in this game is kind of ridiculous. Why is it that healers are the only role that get an extremely lackluster DPS rotation yet are still required to contribute significant amounts of DPS to clear difficult content? Like, in what world is a 1-button spammed DPS rotation okay for ANY JOB in PVE content? Well, after playing this game for 8 years now and weathering all the various changes to the jobs I honestly think we've hit the point where healers seriously need to be redesigned."

The rest continues in a similar vein. Lack of engagement does noe equate to incompetence. If anything, OP may be frustrated or stressed due to boredom but I wouldn't want to imply anything about his/her/their mental state. I only know that having only 1 skill to hit when no one needs heals (and I have no buffs to apply) isn't exciting for me.

Once again, repeating an argument that draws a false conclusion enough times does not make it true. This is basic logical thinking- a valid argument can have a true conclusion only if all of the premises are true.

[Sebazy]

healers ALREADY being dps is one of the problems? it was implied in the original post of whoever posted it, healing stresses out healers. so why on earth would it make sense to pile more on what they already can't manage?

It's not the healing that's stressing these sorts of players out though. Simply coping with mechanics even in simple content like 24 man raids is more than some can handle, pressing just about anything whilst trying to keep a tab on what's happening around them is beyond some some players.

This is compounded by the fact that this game arguably goes too far in coddling such a low standard of play, I'm not talking about people who simply don't DPS, I'm talking about people who struggle to press more than a button every 10 seconds or so in casual content. The game makes it far too easy to get right up to the door of Extreme and Savage content without ever making even the slightest bit of effort to understand your kit or even the concept of your job in general. Instead it just apologetically shoves more gear and easier modes your way until eventually you manage to crawl over the ripple in the pavement that is this game's casual challenge curve.

Tuning the game and making balance decisions around this kind of player is just daft because short of having a stance with an aoe medica II aura around them, they'll never not be stressed as a healer. It's just that it's more obvious to everyone around them when they are on a healer, DPS is basically irrelevant outside of Extremes and above and Tanks can practically /beesknees for agro at this point.

[Lilapop]

It's not the healing that's stressing these sorts of players out though. Simply coping with mechanics even in simple content like 24 man raids is more than some can handle, pressing just about anything whilst trying to keep a tab on what's happening around them is beyond some some players.

This is compounded by the fact that this game arguably goes too far in coddling such a low standard of play, I'm not talking about people who simply don't DPS, I'm talking about people who struggle to press more than a button every 10 seconds or so in casual content. The game makes it far too easy to get right up to the door of Extreme and Savage content without ever making even the slightest bit of effort to understand your kit or even the concept of your job in general. Instead it just apologetically shoves more gear and easier modes your way until eventually you manage to crawl over the ripple in the pavement that is this game's casual challenge curve.

Tuning the game and making balance decisions around this kind of player is just daft because short of having a stance with an aoe medica II aura around them, they'll never not be stressed as a healer. It's just that it's more obvious to everyone around them when they are on a healer, DPS is basically irrelevant outside of Extremes and above and Tanks can practically /beesknees for agro at this point.

yeah, but making it easy to walk right up to the doors of extreme/savage content and performing well in that tier aren't the same. getting up there for sure is easier than actually being IN there. personally it being easy to GET there is fine. but is it easy to participate within? (well, depends on the op veteran pro you ask) but assuming it's not as easy as casual content, they'll have to learn to use their full kit either before the content or within the content which is.. probably not ideal for those who are already there... but that seems to be where we're at unless i forgot something.

[Payotz]

yeah, but making it easy to walk right up to the doors of extreme/savage content and performing well in that tier aren't the same. getting up there for sure is easier than actually being IN there. personally it being easy to GET there is fine. but is it easy to participate within? (well, depends on the op veteran pro you ask) but assuming it's not as easy as casual content, they'll have to learn to use their full kit either before the content or within the content which is.. probably not ideal for those who are already there... but that seems to be where we're at unless i forgot something.

Uhh, you don't have to perform well in Savage to clear. You just have to perform the bare minimum. Not every person in a Savage pug party is the best of the best, I assure you.
The only period in time where that's even remotely true is during the first few weeks of Savage, but the moment catch up and the new EX comes around, then the tier gets significantly easier.

The skill floor is as low as it's ever been, and even if very few people can't reach the skill floor, that's no reason to force the skill ceiling and skill floor to be one and the same.
Increasing the skill ceiling of healers, by giving them more potential buttons to press for dps isn't going to raise the skill floor. It's not going to affect the baby healer's first time clear which they're gonna be doing by pressing a dot every 30 seconds.

What it's going to affect is that baby healer's potential. He/She's gonna be more confident to utilize their whole kit as they raid, and they're gonna need plenty of room to grow and be satisfied as a healer, not be forced to play as if they've been stuck on the skill floor with no potential to improve and to express their skill.

They don't need to be smothered by people who refuses to raise the skill ceiling, just because they don't want themselves to reach the skill ceiling.
Mostly everyone that has an interest in Savage and Ultimates has an interest in reaching the skill ceiling, so why refuse them that option?

[Sebazy]

yeah, but making it easy to walk right up to the doors of extreme/savage content and performing well in that tier aren't the same. getting up there for sure is easier than actually being IN there. personally it being easy to GET there is fine. but is it easy to participate within? (well, depends on the op veteran pro you ask) but assuming it's not as easy as casual content, they'll have to learn to use their full kit either before the content or within the content which is.. probably not ideal for those who are already there... but that seems to be where we're at unless i forgot something.

I disagree there, primarily because there's no curve to the difficulty whatsoever. If anything leveling dungeons are routinely more challenging than 'expert' dungeons. You hit the end game, start gearing up and the challenge and personal responsibility evaporates to the point where the only way to truly fail in the the sort of content you'll do as you gear up is to fail so spectacularly that your group makes the effort to kick you.

And then Extremes happen.

You switch instantly from having very little responsibility or bearing on how things progress to outright causing wipes, having people chewing you out and generally having very little idea what on earth just happened. The game makes no effort whatsoever to prepare you or set your expectations of what's to come. You just faceplant into a whopping difficulty spike. When something like the first pull of Bardams is a better training ground for a healer than anything Aglaia throws at you then there's something fundamentally wrong with the design of this game. It's really no surprise that so many people quickly develop a near pathological hatred of raiders and the raid scene in general.

so lemme get this straight... you, we'll call you "veterans", are asking for your old "outsourced" toolkit back, and the new people are saying "nah we like it as is"... and new people are unaware of how the class was before. but how the class was before is irrelevant if people like the class how it currently is now. so i have to ask, since that seems to be the vibes i'm getting from that list bit, what makes the opinion of people who want their old kit "superior" to those who are happy with how the class plays now? clearly the devs favor the latter and not the former, and there ARE in fact people who prefer it how it is now. ++ it seems the veterans are unwilling to accept the newbies opinion on the class, while saying their opinion is the "better" and "correct" way for the class to run?

The solution here is to give players the choice with some legitimate variety within the role. Right now the choice boils down to if you want to give yourself RSI every 2 minutes or not. Outside of that there's very little variation within the gameplay of the healers outside of Savage and Ultimate.