Healers need an overhaul

[NekoMataMata]

So why do Tanks get a rotation if they aren't DPS? Get that double standard crap out of here.

Last I checked but tanks have to grab aggro and maintain aggro. Damage skills are also a part of some tanks sustain. You can't really compare the two here.

But I understand. Judging by the aggressiveness of your posts here you just absolutely have to have a healer with a full DPS rotation don't you? You don't care about logic, you'll use whatever you can think of in your own arguments to get what you want at this point.

[Rolder50]

Last I checked but tanks have to grab aggro and maintain aggro. Damage skills are also a part of some tanks sustain. You can't really compare the two here.

But I understand. Judging by the aggressiveness of your posts here you just absolutely have to have a healer with a full DPS rotation don't you? You don't care about logic, you'll use whatever you can think of in your own arguments to get what you want at this point.

Like the other post said, you dont NEED a complicated DPS rotation to get aggro. Why, we should just take out all their DPS buttons except one, give them even MORE mitigation even if it's not needed, maybe throw in some pointless self heal skills too, boom we got the situation the healer role is in.

And besides, they could have Heals and DPS interact with each other. Like, what if Kardia on Sage wasn't a flat potency value but was instead something like "10% of all damage you do heals the Kardia target" or something like that? What if doing damage filled up the Lily gauge on White Mage? What if Scholar had an attack that put a debuff on the enemy, that caused allies to be healed when they strike the enemy? The possibilites are endless, but instead we get boring "Heal X on Y cooldown, maybe reduce damage taken for a bit" kind of heals that are just so, so tiresome.

[MintnHoney]

Last I checked but tanks have to grab aggro and maintain aggro. Damage skills are also a part of some tanks sustain. You can't really compare the two here.

Except that they also provide an example of non-DPS skills being used, in the past, to generate and maintain aggro.
Furthermore, aggro maintenance is a non-issue thanks to the Squeen approved tank stance button, now in 4 flavors of the exact same thing.

A comparison actually can really happen here: Tanks were designed with the idea that their primary role shouldn't require their absolute focus on the one aspect of their gameplay, whereas healers were not.
And so, why is it that healers cannot be designed for the game they're being put into, and yet Tanks and DPS can?

The point is a rotation will always gonna introduce a distraction to some degree, depending on the skill of a player (that's why tunnel vision is a thing). But for a tank/DPS that does not distract from their main directive. A tank will lose nothing if he focus on his combo, a healer tunnel vision on their combo is a risk of someone else dying.

Actually, that's very incorrect.
If a tank tunnel visions on his DPS combo, but forgets to activate tank stance, that means they will very likely not maintain aggro. Furthermore, if they tunnel on their DPS, they could forget to use mitigation abilities. Which, often, in my experience, they do.

If a DPS tunnel visions, they could also forget to use their mitigation tools or self-sustain abilities. If a DPS tunnel visions, they could forget to do mechanics or not get out of AOEs in time and get OHKO'd. Which, often, in my experience, they do.

And yet, these are just "mistakes." And they're allowed to make these mistakes, because "reasons."
Meanwhile, healers are not allowed to make mistakes because "reasons."

[Raven2014]

Meanwhile, healers are not allowed to make mistakes because "reasons."

Because a tunnel vision healer will suffer all the same consequence that a tunnel vision tank or DPS would, and more. And like I said, it's the only role where a DPS rotation run counter to the role. It's simply a matter of risk assessment, a Healer's DPS rotation is like someone driving a bus full of passenger and texting. A tank's DPS rotation is like crossing a street while texting, and DPS rotation is like walking on the sidewalk and texting.

Yes there are reasons, and they are very GOOD reasons too. Out of the 3 roles, a DPS rotation run directly into the flow of 2, and run counter to the flow of the third ... I'll let you work out which is which.

Every argument I've seen is so fragile it's practically a strawman.

Strange, we actually agree on this one, because that's exactly how I see most of your argument as well. Can we consider it even?

[pikalovr]

Because a tunnel vision healer will suffer all the same consequence that a tunnel vision tank or DPS would, and more. And like I said, it's the only role where a DPS rotation run counter to the role. It's simply a matter of risk assessment, a Healer's DPS rotation is like someone driving a bus full of passenger and texting. A tank's DPS rotation is like crossing a street while texting, and DPS rotation is like walking on the sidewalk and texting.

Yes there are reasons, and they are very GOOD reasons too.



Strange, we actually agree on this one, because that's exactly how I see most of your argument as well. Can we consider it even?

so instead of it being 8/4 people working together to drive the bus. only the 2/1 healers are the ones accountable for driving the bus and as such should get punished cause the other 6/3 people are being lazy or being bad at their jobs? you starting to see how this makes no sense? this is a TEAM game a single role shouldn't be punished so the other roles can have fun and not have to worry. we are not the teams babysitters. we reserve the right to let you die if you keep getting hit by multiple AOEs even after being explained how to avoid it. we aren't here to cover for every little mistake the other roles make. as a tank if i don't DR and die to a TB or auto attacks thats on me amd if the healer didn't heal me that means it's on BOTH of us not just the healer and not just on me.

or if i see that a DPS or other healer died and the healer is rezzing them. i'll pop secondary mits or invuln so they can rez without worry. it's a GROUP effort at the end of the day. if you want to put all the pressure on healers sure thats fine for you but don't complain when the people who can handle the pressure get bored quickly from it being the only thing they have to do. and in a decent group there really isn't even any pressure on healers anyways.

i've said it once and i'll say it again every job should be built around all skill levels. if you need horrendous/bad players to get use and enjoyment out of your kit. it's a badly designed system/kit. we have skill floors and skill ceilings for a reason. the amount of on demand heals we have now has made the floor more than accessible for people who just want to heal now it's time to raise the ceiling a bit

[Sunhwapark]

we have skill floors and skill ceilings for a reason.

At this point I'm convinced the developers are trying to fuse the ceiling & floor together.

[pikalovr]

At this point I'm convinced the developers are trying to fuse the ceiling & floor together.

oh i guarantee you they are why do you think they're homogenizing party burst windows and slowly removing crit variance

[Kolsykol]

At this point I'm convinced the developers are trying to fuse the ceiling & floor together.

Tbh, I think a lot of people want that too.
Most people don't really want to be challenged too much and they want to see the big numbers without having to put too much effort into it.

Issue is that the content where the skill ceiling even matters at all is content these same people shouldn't and usually won't be engaging with to begin with.
But they want the skill ceiling to still be balanced around them because they don't like feeling bad about their numbers.

It's worth remembering that both WoW and FFXIV were successful because they were more casual friendly MMO's.
WoW in particular was designed intentionally to be casual and that's one of the major factors why it became such a huge success.
I'd actually say that a pretty big reason too why a lot of people don't like modern day WoW is because it has strayed away from being a more casual game throughout the years, and a lot of people feel like it's a second job and a very tiny fraction can even do the end raids at the highest difficulty.

So it's a bit of an issue with the players too.
Altho I'd personally really enjoy way more healing being necessary and also more engaging dps rotations for Healers.
I think in practice it's probably not what the average person wants.

I still think one or two more dps skills would be fine, but actually going full out and truly making it more engaging I dunno how that'd land really.
The average player just doesn't want too involved gameplay I think they want something simple.

[WaxSw]

Because a tunnel vision healer will suffer all the same consequence that a tunnel vision tank or DPS would, and more. And like I said, it's the only role where a DPS rotation run counter to the role.

This is a wrong as it can get, firstly dealing damage does not go counter to the role but the opposite. The end goal of healing is to preserve the life of an individual and this is not only taking care of the damage said individual has but also making sure of the elimination of the threat, an action that doesn't or can't fulfil that end goal is generally refered as an incomplete treatment and only resorted to when nothing else is available, so no, dealing damage to threats is part of the healing too or in other words "dps is just healing future damage"

A tunnel vission tank or a dps can wipe the party as easily in the high end content because the mechanics that happen there and how lax the healing checks are and in normal mode other roles have so much self sustain that healers dying is not the biggest of deals, let alone how there are jobs capable of resurrection, with the way the game has evolved there is no reason to keep healers as simplistic other than being "baby's first mmo job"

Ingame there is also a core point why healer's dps is so important: HP is binary, any point of HP past the strictly needed to survive may as well not be there and as such healing has a cap of usefulness while damage is there as something always useful
This means that healers will deal damage because healing always is not optimal, the endgame of healers will revolve around getting as close to that usefulness cap as possible while designating as much time as possible to damage as it doesn't have a cap and the easier the content and stronger the tools the more present damage dealing will be, as such designing an oversimplified dps rotation only leads to more stagnant and repetitive gameplay in the easier and more common content and the better player becomes, the opposite of what good design is.

[MintnHoney]

Because a tunnel vision healer will suffer all the same consequence that a tunnel vision tank or DPS would, and more.

All tunnel visioning leads to the same result, for every role, but the severity varies based on the content.

And like I said, it's the only role where a DPS rotation run counter to the role.

If that is the case, then it's because it was designed to be that way. It doesn't have to be designed to be that way.

It's simply a matter of risk assessment

What, that a player might end up making a mistake and or be a bad player, thereby potentially making something more difficult?
Again, things that, to you, Tanks and DPS are just allowed to be: problems. But healers? Nope, not allowed. Can't have anyone be learning to do better, can't have anyone deviating from being a Sylphie or else the DPS and Tanks might be mildly inconvenienced for not being allowed to be bad themselves.
Must babysit, must keep things fun for the others. Be strong Clarence. Do it for mother.

Yes there are reasons, and they are very GOOD reasons too.

From where I'm standing, your reasons are inconsequential and fail to take in the account any sort of nuance for learning, at the very least, but for other reasons as well. I'll let you figure those out on your own, since you should be able to follow the breadcrumbs to get there.