Pandæmonium story

[jameseoakes]

The ancients "passed the test"? Did they? Maybe in so far that they did not go extinct, yes, but they sacrificed a decent chunk of their population to do so, and then proceeded to plan the genocide of whatever life would be born after the Final Days in order to bring back the souls that had been lost. They do exactly as the Ascians do millenia later when they kill off entire shards, and on top of that potentially millions of lifes on the Source each time they conduct a rejoining. Just like with Emet, their actions are understandable, but to someone of the opinion that life has intrinsic value, they are straying onto a path of evil because they refuse to accept their suffering and that a life lost is a life lost.
At that point, someone opposing them is justified if their reason to do so is protecting those lifes that the Ancients would willingly sacrifice.

The problem is that they've now said that this is strongly implied to be the animal and plant life, the same life that Venat murdered in there totality with her plan

Edit: What even was the test at this point, it wasn't something that Ancients could have passed so it was never fair

[jameseoakes]

I didn't get the impression it was contempt or spite driving her. I actually agree with Rulakir here - I think she gave in to despair. I think she gave up on her people being able to save themselves.

So I will say I think there are some things the writers could've done to make her intentions clearer. There's a gap in knowledge on what happened between us showing up in Elpis and her sundering the world. What did she try? Who did she tell, if anyone? We don't actually know, we only have implications - some heavier and clearer than others.

If I'm following her logic right, it came across as more of her... Convincing herself that her people would always choose the past, always choose to strive for a perfect paradise that they lost instead of facing an imperfect future, always reject suffering, and the only way to avoid falling into despair in the face of suffering is if they're so used to facing suffering that forging ahead anyway is a fundamental part of who they are.

So basically she saw flaws in her society, didn't agree with their take on paradise and what can/should be sacrificed to maintain it, and didn't trust they'd make the "right" choices in the face of disaster. So she entrusted the future to people she could ensure would intimately understand and accept pain and suffering as a part of their reality. Whether that was a good call or not... Well. The survivors get to decide I guess.

I don't see how she could do what she did with out spite, what she does in an act of pure hate

Deleted this earlier by mistake

[AwesomeJr44]

If anything the idea of this being a test is drivel, there's no test to be passed it's a death sentence from Hermes and one Venat Highjacks

^ This. There was never a fair test that Hermes gave them. The Ancients were missing crucial information that they'd need to 'pass the test'. And even if they did know that information, how did Hermes think they would be able to get to Meteion to stop her and thus survive? (I personally think they could do it if Venat told them everything, but Hermes' intention was for no one to know anything) The 'test' was rigged from the start. All of the measures Hermes takes to ensure 'fairness' made the 'test' less fair. How is anyone supposed to pass a test they don't even know they are taking? The solution of Zodiark was the only one they could possibly have come up with. If they're not aware of what's causing it, and thus cannot stop it, their best option is to protect themselves.

Then Venat gets upset that the Ancients didn't somehow telepathically read her mind and figure it all out, so she kills them all for being upset that they had their home robbed from them. Remember kids, suffering is a desirable thing! You should want to suffer! Why aren't you suffering hard enough!? Sundering for you!

[Rulakir]

The ancients "passed the test"? Did they?

Did anyone else? What other world survived Meteion? Hermes' "test" was an execution sentence, one the Ancients narrowly managed to escape and one which sundered Etheirys would not have survived without substantial Ancient intervention. Given they managed to avert total annihilation twice I'd consider that as much passing the test as any and certainly better than anyone else did.

[Kuroka]

^ This. There was never a fair test that Hermes gave them. The Ancients were missing crucial information that they'd need to 'pass the test'. And even if they did know that information, how did Hermes think they would be able to get to Meteion to stop her and thus survive? (I personally think they could do it if Venat told them everything, but Hermes' intention was for no one to know anything) The 'test' was rigged from the start. All of the measures Hermes takes to ensure 'fairness' made the 'test' less fair. How is anyone supposed to pass a test they don't even know they are taking? The solution of Zodiark was the only one they could possibly have come up with. If they're not aware of what's causing it, and thus cannot stop it, their best option is to protect themselves.

Then Venat gets upset that the Ancients didn't somehow telepathically read her mind and figure it all out, so she kills them all for being upset that they had their home robbed from them. Remember kids, suffering is a desirable thing! You should want to suffer! Why aren't you suffering hard enough!? Sundering for you!

Yes... I hate that moral of "you need to suffer"...


For them it was a problem with the flow of aether, so they found a solution.. they had no idea it was a cosmic event, nor that its triggered from one of their creations...

[ZeraSkiratea]

Yes... I hate that moral of "you need to suffer"...


For them it was a problem with the flow of aether, so they found a solution.. they had no idea it was a cosmic event, nor that its triggered from one of their creations...

the thing is that they never searched for an origin of the event, they stopped the symptom, and ignored the sickness. Even without knowledge about the origin, them not looking for it is what doomed them to fail the test.


If you write a test, and you didnt notice there was a second Page of the test....and that page has 80% of the Points for the test.. you didnt pass the test "to the best of your ability"


also to the whole "how is anyone meant to pass a test they dont even know they are taking" thats the whole point tho? noone is meant to know its a test to ensure its a fair situation, its the same situation as their creations are under, they dont know its a test to see fi they are "worth" living. In studies often times the Participant will be told they are researching X; when instead they are researching Y, as saying they are REsearching Y would inevetable change how the subjects react. Thats why you give some people in a medication study Placebo without telling them and so on.
Knowing about X changes how you act, making it a less "fair" situation in this specific instance.


I used school tests as examples earlier, which isnt a good example outside of the whole "they passed the test by not dying imidatly" angel.
What hermes does isnt a Math test etc, its a Scientific test, and having the Subjects be unaware of the(specific) test going on is something that is used





also NOONE, not even Venat, at ANY point disagreed that zodiark was necessery. Noone. The first sacrifice was in line with the test parameters. The second set is also "alright"(more questionable but still justifable from a "the star must survive" standpoint) the THIRD set is where it gets iffy. then Ascians where, understandably traumatised, but that dosnt mean one can not judge their actions in that state, instead of rebuilding their civilisation and planet with their own hands, they decide to offload it to a God, and throw a fuckton of Live at him to eat(once again, saying it was "plantlife" is disingenious, it had people disagree with the decision at least part of it had to be potentialy sapient) to return "to a world without suffering" a world that just never existed.



THATS the point of Venat, not "suffering is good" or "suffering is desirable", its "suffering is a part of life, to deny it is to deny living itself" venat dosnt say you cant work to aleviate suffering, to prevent major sufferings from happening, but to pretend like suffering never existed is delusional. even the "perfect worlds" Meteion shows us still sufferd, even if they believed or pretended they didnt, despite reaching "perfection"(showing that perfection is unreachable)




also THEY HEARD SOMETHING SINGING WHEN IT HAPPEND. that ALONE should warrant a big investigation after "death" wasnt a primary concern anymore.


and even ignoring that, failing to find out it was a cosmic event itself would warrant a failure in this test.


its not a test to see if they can survive the imidiate coming event. It was, specificaly a test to see if they are "worth to live". (for me)They failed when they decided to sacrifice more and more to return to a world that never existed the way they believed.




I believe that the test WAS fair in that regard, it dosnt mean the Ancients could have passed it(altough potentialy they could if they didnt give in and decided to return to a delusion instead of walking forward)
"fair test"=/="you have a chance of passing"
fair test just means that the test was free of outside influences and everyone had the same starting position within the test(except Meteion, who was basically the proctor of the test).




also while yes, the "tools" hydelin gave us where indesbensible to reach it WHEN we had to reach it, that however also dosnt take into account Fandaniel causing zodiark to die speeding up the whole shabang by probably a couple mileniums, and the Ascians meddeling with civilisation causing it to regress more and more.


Allag is a great example, founded by ascians, yes. They HOWEVER managed to achieve space flight, and managed to send a Artifical satelite into orbit , and keep it stable despite their civilisation being extinct for thousands of years. we dont know how much of the tech was "gifted" to them by the ascians, HOWEVER we still know that they managed to actually put it into use. Meaning that the people of Etherys are capable of building space worthy vessels, even before the Ragnarok



Summoing magic was also tainted by the Ascians, and its entirely possible that given time the people of etherys could have "reversed" the tempering parts of it, or otherwise controll the summons enough to not need the loporits to teach them.
The Aether could also be gatherd over long periods of time instead. OBVIOUSLY all of this is just thought experiments with little to no basis in anything

[Rulakir]

They never had a chance to search for the origin. They were trying to restore the star and return their loves ones. Maybe give them a minute to process having narrowly survived an extinction level event before deciding that they're hopeless and need to be sundered. Better yet, tell them what it is they need to do to adapt and overcome. Venat's message wasn't successful because it was a bad message. No one in the midst of trauma and grief wants to hear that they should just accept their suffering and move on, it's callous. Not to mention that would not have helped them confront and defeat Meteion anyway, in fact, the Omega quest chain basically debunks Venat's entire thought process in that regard.

[JepMZ]

I just want to point out Venat taking away one's privileges as superior race is not genocide. Omega from latest patch confirms they are still alive

They never had a chance to search for the origin. They were trying to restore the star and return their loves ones. Maybe give them a minute to process having narrowly survived an extinction level event before deciding that they're hopeless and need to be sundered. Better yet, tell them what it is they need to do to adapt and overcome. Venat's message wasn't successful because it was a bad message. No one in the midst of trauma and grief wants to hear that they should just accept their suffering and move on, it's callous. Not to mention that would not have helped them confront and defeat Meteion anyway, in fact, the Omega quest chain basically debunks Venat's entire thought process in that regard.

No, Venat's message is healthy, it's a philosophy used in group therapy to help people manage their feelings and get out of high risk situations. It's not suffering, it's just pain. If you don't face reality for what it is, your pain becomes suffering and that's not good for anyone. Especially when there is no lore in FF14 where the dead can truly be resurrected without some monkey's paw effect.

Keep in mind the cutscenes is symbolic. The sundering happened after an unknown period of time took place where new Ancients are born and maybe grew up or, worse, are still babies. The sundering happened exactly just before the amourites sacrifice their children to "restore the dead". Venat ran out of time, and was forced to take action or those new life are lost forever

[ZeraSkiratea]

I just want to point out Venat taking away one's privileges as superior race is not genocide. Omega from latest patch confirms they are still alive



No, Venat's message is healthy, it's a philosophy used in group therapy to help people manage their feelings and get out of high risk situations. It's not suffering, it's just pain. If you don't face reality for what it is, your pain becomes suffering and that's not good for anyone. Especially when there is no lore in FF14 where the dead can truly be resurrected without some monkey's paw effect.

Keep in mind the cutscenes is symbolic. The sundering happened after an unknown period of time took place where new Ancients are born and maybe grew up or, worse, are still babies. The sundering happened exactly just before the amourites sacrifice their children to "restore the dead". Venat ran out of time, and was forced to take action or those new life are lost forever

slight correction it wasnt the "ancients children", i think fewer people would have a problem with that as at least, it woudl the Species itself choosing to "sacrifice" themself again... it would be worse then the first 2 sure, but less bad.
Its that they decide to sacrifice unrelated,third party live that caused the divide

[KizuyaKatogami]

I just want to point out Venat taking away one's privileges as superior race is not genocide. Omega from latest patch confirms they are still alive



No, Venat's message is healthy, it's a philosophy used in group therapy to help people manage their feelings and get out of high risk situations. It's not suffering, it's just pain. If you don't face reality for what it is, your pain becomes suffering and that's not good for anyone. Especially when there is no lore in FF14 where the dead can truly be resurrected without some monkey's paw effect.

Keep in mind the cutscenes is symbolic. The sundering happened after an unknown period of time took place where new Ancients are born and maybe grew up or, worse, are still babies. The sundering happened exactly just before the amourites sacrifice their children to "restore the dead". Venat ran out of time, and was forced to take action or those new life are lost forever

This is full of nothing but headcanon. Please cite to me where in the story it says they were sacrificing their children. Exactly, you can’t. As for what she did, please look up the definition of genocide, because if you don’t think the sundering was genocide, then neither are the rejoinings. As for people being resurrected without a monkey paw effect, all the scions get resurrected in UT, with no consequences whatsoever.