Pandæmonium story

[Rulakir]

And no, being given the tools by someone dosnt mean that the person giving you the tools where the one who "passed the test" the person who uses the tools is the one who passes

As far as the Ancients knew, they had. Remember, they had no idea about Meteion or the Song of Oblivion because Venat didn't share that information.

You realize all the tools you listed are basically everything that was required to get to UT and face Meteion, right? That without the unsundered (and Fandaniel), the WoL never would have made it off Etheirys?

[jameseoakes]

Stalling the final days isnt "passing the test" its like saying "i have a sick notice from my doctor so i passed the exam" so you dont have to write an exam on Day X, you still have to write the exam on Day Y.. all you did was buy time.




The only tools Venat/hydealin gave to the WoL are A) the Loporits knowledge of summoning, B) the Tracker, C) the gigantic Mothercrystal and D) potentialy the spaceship via the sharlyan forum and loporits



Any other intervention was from her to stop the ascians from ruining everything be rejoining more and more worlds, therefore thickening the ether in the people making them less able to use dynamis.


And no, being given the tools by someone dosnt mean that the person giving you the tools where the one who "passed the test" the person who uses the tools is the one who passes

The Ancients passed the test as best they were able and Venat murdered them before they had any chance to look into the truth behind it. Using the better parts of the nature (wisdom and self sacrifice) the Anicents prevented there doom, given that they had been explicitly told that was causing the Final Days has ceased to exist it was unfair to expect them to do much more in the time frame they were given. If anything the idea of this being a test is drivel, there's no test to be passed it's a death sentence from Hermes and one Venat Highjacks

[KuroMaboroshi]

The Ancients passed the test as best they were able and Venat murdered them before they had any chance to look into the truth behind it.[...]

The ancients "passed the test"? Did they? Maybe in so far that they did not go extinct, yes, but they sacrificed a decent chunk of their population to do so, and then proceeded to plan the genocide of whatever life would be born after the Final Days in order to bring back the souls that had been lost. They do exactly as the Ascians do millenia later when they kill off entire shards, and on top of that potentially millions of lifes on the Source each time they conduct a rejoining. Just like with Emet, their actions are understandable, but to someone of the opinion that life has intrinsic value, they are straying onto a path of evil because they refuse to accept their suffering and that a life lost is a life lost.
At that point, someone opposing them is justified if their reason to do so is protecting those lifes that the Ancients would willingly sacrifice.

Now, Venat makes the decision of sundering, thereby ending the life of the Ancients as they existed. She does the same to the Ancient civilisation that they planned to do to the new life after the Final Days, and it is okay to call her out on that. But if Venat is wrong in doing so, then so were the Ancients that would have fed more and more innocent lifes to Zodiark. At that point, Venat is not wrong and the Ancients are right, but both are wrong.

And just like the Ancient were wrong, but it is understandable what drove them to that, Venat's decision is also very understandable (again, understandable, not necessarily justified): She believes that the Ancients are headed for one of two ends - either they become the monsters that the Ascians eventually *do* end up becoming, causing more and more suffering to others because they can not accept their own suffering. They can not let go of lifes lost, someone no one would ever blame them for, and in turn inflict that pain on others. They are acting like spoiled children who have never emotionally matured enough to process their grief and move on.

The other option Venat must have considered at that point is that the Ancients are doomed to begin with, for unless they learn their lesson and emotionally mature, their civilisation is bound to end the same way all the self-ended civilisations that Meteion found were. We see this weakness explored at least two other time, first with Hermes who can not accept that live is not always fair, or beautiful, or with intrinstic purpose, and later on Ostrakon Deka-hepta, where we see another civilisation end due to a similar but instead apathy-based emotional immaturity.
So to Venat, the sundering was the lesser of three evil, though it perfectly fair to say that it was still an evil. But given those three outcomes, she chose the only one that she thought presented a way forward where eventually, happiness could be found.

I have no problem with someone calling Venat's actions evil, cause they are (though personally I believe given her options she made the right call - though absolute knowledge acquired in part through time travelling makes morale debates always tricky, cause that is not a luxury one has in reality outside of stories).
But I find this argument that somehow Venat is the source of all the bad and the Ancients might have fixed their situation ridiculous. The Ancients were already on a really dark path by the time the Final Days were over. They had already failed the test, not passed it.

[jameseoakes]

The ancients "passed the test"? Did they? Maybe in so far that they did not go extinct, yes, but they sacrificed a decent chunk of their population to do so, and then proceeded to plan the genocide of whatever life would be born after the Final Days in order to bring back the souls that had been lost. They do exactly as the Ascians do millenia later when they kill off entire shards, and on top of that potentially millions of lifes on the Source each time they conduct a rejoining. Just like with Emet, their actions are understandable, but to someone of the opinion that life has intrinsic value, they are straying onto a path of evil because they refuse to accept their suffering and that a life lost is a life lost.
At that point, someone opposing them is justified if their reason to do so is protecting those lifes that the Ancients would willingly sacrifice.

The problem is that they've now said that this is strongly implied to be the animal and plant life, the same life that Venat murdered in there totality with her plan

Edit: What even was the test at this point, it wasn't something that Ancients could have passed so it was never fair

[Rulakir]

The ancients "passed the test"? Did they?

Did anyone else? What other world survived Meteion? Hermes' "test" was an execution sentence, one the Ancients narrowly managed to escape and one which sundered Etheirys would not have survived without substantial Ancient intervention. Given they managed to avert total annihilation twice I'd consider that as much passing the test as any and certainly better than anyone else did.

[AwesomeJr44]

If anything the idea of this being a test is drivel, there's no test to be passed it's a death sentence from Hermes and one Venat Highjacks

^ This. There was never a fair test that Hermes gave them. The Ancients were missing crucial information that they'd need to 'pass the test'. And even if they did know that information, how did Hermes think they would be able to get to Meteion to stop her and thus survive? (I personally think they could do it if Venat told them everything, but Hermes' intention was for no one to know anything) The 'test' was rigged from the start. All of the measures Hermes takes to ensure 'fairness' made the 'test' less fair. How is anyone supposed to pass a test they don't even know they are taking? The solution of Zodiark was the only one they could possibly have come up with. If they're not aware of what's causing it, and thus cannot stop it, their best option is to protect themselves.

Then Venat gets upset that the Ancients didn't somehow telepathically read her mind and figure it all out, so she kills them all for being upset that they had their home robbed from them. Remember kids, suffering is a desirable thing! You should want to suffer! Why aren't you suffering hard enough!? Sundering for you!

[Kuroka]

^ This. There was never a fair test that Hermes gave them. The Ancients were missing crucial information that they'd need to 'pass the test'. And even if they did know that information, how did Hermes think they would be able to get to Meteion to stop her and thus survive? (I personally think they could do it if Venat told them everything, but Hermes' intention was for no one to know anything) The 'test' was rigged from the start. All of the measures Hermes takes to ensure 'fairness' made the 'test' less fair. How is anyone supposed to pass a test they don't even know they are taking? The solution of Zodiark was the only one they could possibly have come up with. If they're not aware of what's causing it, and thus cannot stop it, their best option is to protect themselves.

Then Venat gets upset that the Ancients didn't somehow telepathically read her mind and figure it all out, so she kills them all for being upset that they had their home robbed from them. Remember kids, suffering is a desirable thing! You should want to suffer! Why aren't you suffering hard enough!? Sundering for you!

Yes... I hate that moral of "you need to suffer"...


For them it was a problem with the flow of aether, so they found a solution.. they had no idea it was a cosmic event, nor that its triggered from one of their creations...

[Rulakir]

Venat would have made for a better Yunalesca type of character or truer to her namesake Venat in FFXII. Her portrayal and actions resulted in a dissonance that was difficult to reconcile. The game forces that reconciliation upon you, but that's a problem in itself.

I agree the fetishization of suffering throughout EW was disturbing. I've been apprehensive about the story going forward, but it looks like there's some moderate course correction in 6.15. Sadly, I still don't have high hopes for Pandemonium. Mostly, I hope at the end of it we find out Elidibus' soul made it to the aetherial sea instead of being completely used up as time travel fuel. He had probably the worst fate of any of the Ancients, I'd like to see him given a break.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Stalling the final days isnt "passing the test" its like saying "i have a sick notice from my doctor so i passed the exam" so you dont have to write an exam on Day X, you still have to write the exam on Day Y.. all you did was buy time.




The only tools Venat/hydealin gave to the WoL are A) the Loporits knowledge of summoning, B) the Tracker, C) the gigantic Mothercrystal and D) potentialy the spaceship via the sharlyan forum and loporits



Any other intervention was from her to stop the ascians from ruining everything be rejoining more and more worlds, therefore thickening the ether in the people making them less able to use dynamis.


And no, being given the tools by someone dosnt mean that the person giving you the tools where the one who "passed the test" the person who uses the tools is the one who passes

Yet….the ancients were given no such tools. She had knowledge on the final days and chose not to say anything. So again, how is it fair? The sundered were given knowledge on the final days. If they didn’t have that knowledge they would be just as screwed. The only reason they prevail is because of constant higher up help. The only reason they’re even alive right now is because of Zodiark.

[JepMZ]

I just want to point out Venat taking away one's privileges as superior race is not genocide. Omega from latest patch confirms they are still alive

They never had a chance to search for the origin. They were trying to restore the star and return their loves ones. Maybe give them a minute to process having narrowly survived an extinction level event before deciding that they're hopeless and need to be sundered. Better yet, tell them what it is they need to do to adapt and overcome. Venat's message wasn't successful because it was a bad message. No one in the midst of trauma and grief wants to hear that they should just accept their suffering and move on, it's callous. Not to mention that would not have helped them confront and defeat Meteion anyway, in fact, the Omega quest chain basically debunks Venat's entire thought process in that regard.

No, Venat's message is healthy, it's a philosophy used in group therapy to help people manage their feelings and get out of high risk situations. It's not suffering, it's just pain. If you don't face reality for what it is, your pain becomes suffering and that's not good for anyone. Especially when there is no lore in FF14 where the dead can truly be resurrected without some monkey's paw effect.

Keep in mind the cutscenes is symbolic. The sundering happened after an unknown period of time took place where new Ancients are born and maybe grew up or, worse, are still babies. The sundering happened exactly just before the amourites sacrifice their children to "restore the dead". Venat ran out of time, and was forced to take action or those new life are lost forever