What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

My issues with Ishgard predate Garlemald. The exiled WoL essentially does everything for them, but then Aymeric consistently acts like he owes a debt to the Eorzean Alliance. I miss isolationist Ishgard. I actually hate seeing them on every warfront, especially because Aymeric will probably remind me somehow that he feels perpetually indebted to the other city-states for what I did. I love how we ended the Dragonsong War for them only to drag them into literally every other possible conflict.

As for the Steppe, it may have been allowable but it wasn't honorable. We gamed the Nadaam with the WoL trump card (reminder the person who Thancred credits as single-handedly winning the Grand Melee for Ishgard) so Hien could recruit the Xaela into a war that didn't concern them and near as I can tell didn't benefit them in any way. Unfortunately, this was just one more in a series of traveling around the world pressuring people into joining the fight and, worse, because the aforementioned Eorzean Alliance decided to grant Ilberd's dying wish. I still don't understand how we won against Garlemald. It should've been an absolute slaughter with Ala Mhigo and Doma being crushed under magitek foot.

[CrownySuccubus]

It should've been an absolute slaughter with Ala Mhigo and Doma being crushed under magitek foot.

Simple. They had an army. We had a WOL.

That said, Ishgard abandoning its isolationism made sense. That was imposed by a tyrannical theocracy to keep people ignorant and secure said religious dictator's power hold.

But now that you mention it, I can't help but notice that most cases of the WOL ending an isolationist society results from "They have X and we need X to save the world. Therefore, we have to force them to give us X", which basically comes across as a 15th-Century "How to Justify Colonial Expansion" manual. I mean, yeah, the fact that the player usually needs to upturn some society to get what they need to save the world is both true and not exactly new to RPGs, but it IS noticeable how often it happens to the Scions.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Simple. They had an army. We had a WOL.

That said, Ishgard abandoning its isolationism made sense. That was imposed by a tyrannical theocracy to keep people ignorant and secure said religious dictator's power hold.

But now that you mention it, I can't help but notice that most cases of the WOL ending an isolationist society results from "They have X and we need X to save the world. Therefore, we have to force them to give us X", which basically comes across as a 15th-Century "How to Justify Colonial Expansion" manual. I mean, yeah, the fact that the player usually needs to upturn some society to get what they need to save the world is both true and not exactly new to RPGs, but it IS noticeable how often it happens to the Scions.

No offense, but the WoL died from Black Rose. We're not some unfallible deity, if Garlemald in its prime threw the worst it had to offer at us and they all dogpiled us I'm rather certain we'd die. We're not a freaking Super Saiyan, or a character in a musou plowing through literal regiments of enemy soldiers simultaneously. The only reason the threat Garlemald proffered was defanged was because Zenos slaughtered them all offscreen so the Garlemald expansion didn't have to happen.

Same. Especially after the NieR crossover doubled down on Emet's 12k years of "hatred and heartbreak". I could accept what Brinne said about Emet not wanting to upset the WoL, but the leap to commending Venat was too much. I can't help but wonder if that was also Yoshi-P's doing because it was so character inconsistent and didn't match with the surrounding dialog. "We need to have fan favorite, Emet, praise Venat too to really sell her character!" Speaking of which, did anyone else notice his Elpis description of her essentially paints her as a Mary Sue? She's apparently the best there is at everything. :| This also seems in conflict with his other dialog that suggests he didn't like her even back then.

This worries me, tbqh what with how Y'shtola seems to be leading the next patch cycle/possible expansion. Y'shtola feels like a developer's mouthpiece more than a character to me these days. Black Mage job switch, the most fanatically devoted to Hydaelyn of all the Scions, etc. Feels like we're gearing up to be smashed in the face with more faulty ideology with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

[CrownySuccubus]

No offense, but the WoL died from Black Rose. We're not some unfallible deity, if Garlemald in its prime threw the worst it had to offer at us and they all dogpiled us I'm rather certain we'd die. We're not a freaking Super Saiyan, or a character in a musou plowing through literal regiments of enemy soldiers simultaneously. The only reason the threat Garlemald proffered was defanged was because Zenos slaughtered them all offscreen so the Garlemald expansion didn't have to happen.

No offense, but you're overreacting to a single line that was meant as a joke.

No s--t the WOL isn't invincible. That doesn't change the fact that they have fought and/or defeated an impossible number of threats up to and including the literal embodiment of oblivion itself.

[Carin-Eri]

No offense, but you're overreacting to a single line that was meant as a joke.

No s--t the WOL isn't invincible. That doesn't change the fact that they have fought and/or defeated an impossible number of threats up to and including the literal embodiment of oblivion itself.

Outside of alternate timelines it's also worth mentioning the final fight against Zenos, or rather it's conclusion. That was certainly a reminder that, determination and Echo notwithstanding, the WoLs body is still mortal and it was pretty clear that the WoL would've died if the emergency teleportation device hadn't appeared.

[Brinne]

Unfortunately, this was just one more in a series of traveling around the world pressuring people into joining the fight and, worse, because the aforementioned Eorzean Alliance decided to grant Ilberd's dying wish. I still don't understand how we won against Garlemald. It should've been an absolute slaughter with Ala Mhigo and Doma being crushed under magitek foot.

There's a dark joke in here somewhere about how Venat and Ilberd, with their ideologies and methods, secured victory and achieved everything they wanted, whereas Emet-Selch's point of failure and his downfall is stated to be his "kindness," but I probably don't have the heart or the brainpower to properly formulate it at this moment.

[Rulakir]

There's a dark joke in here somewhere about how Venat and Ilberd, with their ideologies and methods, secured victory and achieved everything they wanted, whereas Emet-Selch's point of failure and his downfall is stated to be his "kindness," but I probably don't have the heart or the brainpower to properly formulate it at this moment.

Nice guys finish last? :P

Emet was undone by the Azem soul. That was his Achilles' Heel and Venat knew it. I don't know how familiar you are with other language translations, but "matchmaker" is used in almost every (all?) other version except EN in his UT dialog. Purely speculation on my part, but I can't help but feel that Venat specifically used Emet's love for Azem against him. She'd thrown in her lot with the WoL and, aside from knowing the future, would've known that would be his weakness. I don't know if that was the intention, but if it was it makes her exponentially worse in my eyes because that's such a sadistic thing to do to someone. Every time I think Emet couldn't be any more tragic I learn that, yes, yes he can.