What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[anhaato]

"Goal"? I need a goal to state an opinion now?

How about you? What's your goal here?

I believe I made it quite clear from the beginning that my goal is to get you all to stop derailing threads by starting fights with people because you don’t like the way they criticize the story or it’s characters. You, in particular, have been repeatedly starting shit trying to shut people down, taking up countless pages with it and it’s beyond annoying.

[aveyond-dreams]

Ok well if you want to change the direction of the thread back to Venat, I think it would have been far more interesting and made for a more entertaining experience if she really lived up to the whole fallen angel thing she quite literally has going on instead of pretending to be "everyone's mother." This woman isn't a benevolent goddess, she's a deceiver and one of the most destructive beings in the entirety of the mainline series outclassed only by the likes of Meteion and Jenova. Now, Venat wasn't that bad as a party member when was part of the Elpis trio but everything after (and before) that point is full of flimsy logic and desperate writing in attempt to retcon her into a positive figure, despite having very clear indications in Shadowbringers that she wasn't.




I suppose a better way to have gone about it would've been to draw inspiration from the likes of Sirene or the situation revolving Ryo Asuka. Sirene for being an interesting villainess and having a fight sequence so prominent that it's even being replicated in FFXVI, and Ryo for the way in which such a betrayal could've gone about. Deliberately create a problem that necessitated the summoning of Zodiark, then presenting herself as the solution in the form of a seemingly loving and protective goddess, despite her "creations" being little more than magic putty in the direct aftermath of the sundering. When they went out and said in the Live Letter that the races "evolved" into their current form, none of us pictured that they literally became that after being jello for an unspecified amount of time. All this while subconsciously trying to bring back the friend (the WoL) that would wind up becoming her undoing after having manipulated and fostered his growth to well beyond what she could manage.

I would absolutely have preferred a final fight against her, starting from the depths of the Earth where she resided in a literal lake of ice to winding up fighting on the barren surface of the moon where she originally had banished Zodiark. Partway through the fight, instead of riding Zenos dragon, why not Vrtra? Or better yet Midgardsormr? Naturally given that this is an MMORPG the WoL would likely win instead of the alternate outcome that resulted from Ryo and Akira's battle. It probably would have been a lot more satisfying than willingly salvaging whatever was left of Meteion and unleashing that back into the universe, and then being forced into battle with Zenos which many posters have mentioned that doing this went directly against how they felt their WoLs would react in that situation.

[Rulakir]

As much as I like that idea, I think it's clear the 'powers that be' weren't interested in an evil or even antagonistic Hydaelyn. I've said before, I thought she'd be presented similarly to Emet. Sympathetic motivations, but ultimately someone we had to stop. I still believe that it was Ishikawa's intention to present her as actually morally grey, especially as by action and deed she is unquestionably an antagonist to the extent of being compared to Emet (and Hermes), but likely had to rewrite it (hence the copious gaslighting) to appease others. Interviews from ShB would also hint at this being the case with Yoshi-P saying that we hadn't heard Hydaelyn's side of the story yet.

Venat remaining a 'good guy' would've meant either her memories were also erased or (as I've also mentioned before) going the Greek tragedy route where by attempting to avert the future, or 'prophecy', the WoL describes she ends up inadvertently causing it. It's one of the few ways I've thought of where she'd remain a likeable and tragic character. As it is, during her infamous cutscene, when she says, "All is excruciating pain. I breathe fire and torment." All I can think is, "Good, it's the least you deserve."

I think Venat having an opposing ideology, which was essentially the case, would've worked out fine. It's unfortunate that my character still canonically speaks of her in "fond" or "friendly" terms, depending on language translation, even if I choose that she wasn't justified or I believed someone other than her was. I suppose I begrudgingly have to accept it the same way Emet haters were forced to watch their characters reach out for him in anguish after Ktisis. It would just be nice if the MSQ itself (and the codex) acknowledged it and it wasn't tucked away in a side quest locked behind 'old' content.

At this point, I'm most concerned about the short stories. I've been giving Hydaelyn's summoners the benefit of the doubt that they didn't know the truth of the future or Venat's intentions. I think having 12 other people on board with genocide with no guarantee of success is just going to further tarnish their image as essentially a civilization of people on the edge all too willing to wipe each other out for conflicting mindsets, which aside from the two extremists we're introduced to doesn't appear to be the case at all. In fact, even the Watcher's dialog in the Omega quest chain would suggest Venat was so resolved in her convictions he couldn't change her mind if he wanted.

Most of us here were already unhappy with the messaging surrounding the Ancients in EW without the writers making it even worse. Having spoken with several in this thread (join the discord if you haven't :P), many of us have one foot out the door depending on how they're handled going forward.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

"everyone's mother."

This reminds me, she calls the sundered her children much in the same way the pixies call the leafmen their children. The fact is that they are their victims while she and the pixies are simply detached from reality.

[Theodric]

I would have liked the nuance for Garlemald that was present for Nilfgaard in The Witcher 3. It'd be rather wonderful to have visited a province of Garlemald in Ilsabard that proved to be as prosperous and as beautiful as Toussaint:



I'd like more grit and genuine intrigue in general and less effete 'we must all be fwends and let bygones be bygones' on both sides of any given conflict.

[Jagick]

I would have liked the nuance for Garlemald that was present for Nilfgaard in The Witcher 3. It'd be rather wonderful to have visited a province of Garlemald in Ilsabard that proved to be as prosperous and as beautiful as Toussaint:



I'd like more grit and genuine intrigue in general and less effete 'we must all be fwends and let bygones be bygones' on both sides of any given conflict.

So much this.

[Theodric]

I think there's a big difference between stating an opinion and subtly or not so subtly attempting to stifle topics of discussion altogether.

[CrownySuccubus]

I think there's a big difference between stating an opinion and subtly or not so subtly attempting to stifle topics of discussion altogether.

Which one is your post right here doing, I wonder?

See, that's the problem with this "gatekeeping" argument. Bringing up a topic of discussion does not mean that people can't have an opinion ON an opinion. If someone in here right now came in this thread, and said, "I didn't like Endwalker because it didn't have Captain America in it", they would rightly be called out for it. Having a rant thread isn't a declaration that every single rant is equally valid or reasonable.

I just happen to find this constant vitriol about burgers to fall into the "unreasonable" area, and will continue to say as much unless something changes my mind.

[aveyond-dreams]

I just happen to find this constant vitriol about burgers to fall into the "unreasonable" area, and will continue to say as much unless something changes my mind.

When we can go a whole patch with no slice of life nonsense or cringeworthy fanservice in the MSQ then I will calm down on the issue. Till then? I will absolutely speak out against what I feel is off-topic and damaging to the game's story. It has veered too far from what I came here for, and belittling that fact doesn't make me feel any less betrayed or upset by what I'm seeing in game.

[Kolsykol]

"Goal"? I need a goal to state an opinion now?

How about you? What's your goal here?

----

In regards to Garlemald, they had five expansions to introduce some nuance to Garlemald other than "well, some of them AREN'T racist monsters", but that's pretty much the direction they went to the very end. I was hoping that the Stormblood expacs leading into Shadowbringers would add more nuance to Varis (and thus, the Empire), but we basically just got "I want to cause rejoinings because something-something one true race". I honestly would've saw trying to cram all that into 6.0 or later as a cop-out.

Tbh the racism thing isn't exactly unique to Garleans, and the Garleans being racist is a bit more understandable too considering their history.
Not saying it's right, but it's more like retribution for wrongs committed against them in the past.
( And it becomes a circular thing, but ultimately they were the first to be victimized. )

The whole '' one true race '' thing makes sense too if you know the context behind it ( which we didn't then ), altho the way he presented it was definitely quite unhinged.
But his overall point was that the Ascians were bad and if we were going to stand a chance against them we had to be '' whole ''.
I definitely think Varis is a bit more nuanced with the full context revealed, I also think it's a bit understandable that he'd be a bit unhinged about it considering he had basically been carrying that knowledge alone and even been the grandson of and puppet of an Ascian himself.
Varis just was in a very very screwed up position and could basically not talk to anyone about it until then and like his entire life and the empire he loved was basically a lie.

I didn't really get the impression that the Garleans were just treated as racist monsters, especially not if you know the lore of the other races and how shitty they can be towards each other too.
From our pov we don't see much of it because we're the WoL and generally hang around good people.

Edit: When it comes to Ala Mhigo too there's the whole mad king thing.
There's some truth to the notion that Garleans offered stability even if it was oppressive, I think Eorzeans are portrayed in a pretty negative way quite frequently in the story too.
We saw that with how people trying to adapt were treated too ( Fordola's parents ).