What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Jagick]

Here's a no doubt non-inclusive list of all of the contrivances, plot holes, and outright idiocy one has to accept in order to get through Endwalker's trainwreck of a plot. THIS is how far one's Disbelief must be Suspended

• We have to accept that 7 Rejoinings have limited Hydaelyn's ability to communicate with men, and generally weakened her, despite 7 being the same number of Rejoinings since the start of A Realm Reborn, the time when she talked to men all the time and actively protected us from the Ultima spell
• We have to accept that several formerly intelligent characters thought it wise, in the face of the Apocalypse, to have the WoL waste their time helping nerds read books in the Nerdery, taking their focus off the End of the World Tower they are uniquely qualified to deal with
• We have to accept the WoL saw an autonomous, less-than-lethal grenade drone and didn't mention it or its MANY uses to ANYONE
• Thus, we have to accept that the WoL is cannonically dumber than gibbon turds
• We have to accept that Nidhana seriously thought it was a good idea to test the anti-tempering scale herself. Risking the top of the chain of command for absolutely no benefit
• We have to accept that Alisae and Alphy were dumb enough to propose a plan to invade Garlemald without killing anyone
• We have to accept that the rest of the Scions unanimously agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that several heads of state agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that very many volunteers gleefully stepped forth to throw their lives away on this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept NO ONE MENTIONED THE CONQUERER'S CHAIN and how it would make this suicidally idiotic plan just a tiny bit less suicidal
• We have to accept that the Far East contingent, comprised of highly trained ninjas and warriors, extremely capable of targeted strikes, forward reconnaissance, and simply open fighting, were relegated to Naruto Running communications back and forth off screen. Even though LINKSHELLS EXIST
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola, formerly intelligent character, ever thought Estinien, whose only skill is stabbing, would be useful in non-fatally subduing wild zombies
• We have to accept the suicidally idiotic plan to completely non-lethally invade Garlemald actually works
• BECAUSE we have to accept that hitting people with my gigantic axe just knocks them over with Looney Toons stars around their head. Instead of killing them like it had done to everything else throughout the whole game since level bloody 1.

to be continued

continued from above:

• We have to accept two unarmed women in street clothes seriously fled onto a monster covered ice shelf in the direction of a dead end just to avoid talking to someone they don't like
• We have to accept whoever wrote that wants us to feel sorry for those two Darwin Award Winners
• We have to accept that Thancred had the Conquerer's Chain with him the entire time
• We have to accept that Thancred didn't tell anyone that he had the Conquerer's Chain with him the entire time
• We have to accept we didn't murder Thancred (this is the point I gave up on the expansion)
• We have to accept no one complaining about the cold the entire time ever thought to put on a winter hat to cover their doofus carnival ears
• We have to accept no one lost an earlobe to frostbite
• We have to accept the Loporrits had hostile robots wandering around the dining room FOR NO RAISIN!
• We have to accept that Hermes was mentally and emotionally defective enough to have a breakdown because we had to euthanize a wild animal before it killed everything else in Elpis
• We have to accept that despite being such a fragile clod, Hermes rose to be in charge of Elpis and was being considered for Convocation-ship
• We have to accept that every planet a Meteion went to had developed sapient life that had subsequently went extinct
• Not one planet just didn't have life on it. Or just had early aquatic life, or was in a Dinosaur stage, or had a society that hadn't yet destroyed themselves, or any other of many possibilities. HOW CONVENIENT for clown plot
• We have to accept Hermes has an Insta-Cast spell strong enough to bind the WoL, the former Azem, and the current Emet Selch. And also some other guy.
• We have to accept Hermes didn't use this incredibly useful spell TWO MINUTES EARLIER when he was fighting us.
• We have to accept that bind spell was either broken or ran out of duration JUST after Hermes finished programming Kairos, and also JUST IN TIME for everyone to act in time for Venat and WoL to escape. HOW LUCKY
• We have to accept that EMET SELCH, formerly highly intelligent and practical, spent time saying a few final words to the WoL instead of acting to escape himself
• We have to accept that Venat refuses to even attempt to bring Emet Selch into the fold, despite his objective and demonstrable status as an ally. Because this clown plot couldn't occur otherwise
• We have to accept all the various and myriad lore shattering lunacy that occurred in that Venat cutscene as the WoL was returning to the present day (that is another tl;dr for another time)

continued again

• We have to accept the WoL did not get any closer to the Satrap despite running towards him for several seconds
• We have to accept that some Blasphemy cascade situation didn't completely unravel anywhere in the world while we were VERY LEISURELY making our way through the rest of the extremely padded out plot
• Seriously. Kugane, Doma, Azim Steppe, Bozja, etc, completely unharmed. The giga-blasphemies masquerading as proper job quests? Completely contained offscreen nothing else to worry about
• Yeah just do some chores and kill some time and walk and talk for several hours as the world is supposedly ending no big deal
• We have to accept Y'Shtola sincerely suggested that Hydaelyn sundering Man, and thereby reducing an individual's aetheric density, rendered us more resistant to dynamis, even though that is EXACTLY the opposite of how it had been established to work. I'm fairly certain it was Y'Shtola herself that spelled out how the Unsundered didn't themselves turn into Blasphemies because of their aetheric density.
• We have to accept that Hydaelyn played along with Y'Shtola's idiocy because Hydaelyn herself just realized what an idiotic idea sundering Man was
• We have to accept that only the "Core Scions" were loaded up for the one and only chance to save the universe
• We have to accept that we didn't use any of the spare time in the plot to gather extra help for the One And Only Shot to save the actual universe.
• Really no one thought to try and wrangle up any of Gaius, Lucia, Hoary Boulder And Friends, anyone from the various combat guilds, anyone from the various job quests, the crazy lady from Azim Steppe, literally even that Assassin Fisherlady from Heavensward there's plenty of bloody room on the Ragnarok and the universe is at stake why are we pretending we have the roster limitations of a basketball team who wrote this abject garbage
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola unironically told us not to bring them back by using Azem's crystal, even though there was no reason NOT to bring back Y'shtola, Urianger, and Estinien once the WoL reached the next Aetheryte.
• We have to accept that Zenos, after multiple times refusing to instigate a fight with the WoL because there was a lack of "despair" or whatever edgelord nonsense, all of a sudden is cool with challenging the WoL to an explicitly voluntary duel.
• We thus have to accept that the writers of this decade long mess went through all the trouble to bring Zenos back from the whole dead, but not for one good reason.

This expansion was a catastrophic failure of characterization, continuity, and common sense from start to finish. Or the plot of the expansion was, anyway. The gameplay """content""" is, of course, the exact same loop of tired tripe we've been repeating since Heavensward. And I still can't actually WEAR my SAMhat

Excuse me while I vomit blood uncontrollably because this sums up my issues with the expansion, especially the Garlemald arc, and especially how so much requires the WoL or other supposedly intelligent characters to be stupid to accommodate the terrible writing. Agreed with everything. THANK. YOU.

[CrownySuccubus]

[*]We have to accept that Alisae and Alphy were dumb enough to propose a plan to invade Garlemald without killing anyone[*]We have to accept that the rest of the Scions unanimously agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan[*]We have to accept that several heads of state agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan[*]We have to accept that very many volunteers gleefully stepped forth to throw their lives away on this suicidally idiotic plan[*]We have to accept NO ONE MENTIONED THE CONQUERER'S CHAIN and how it would make this suicidally idiotic plan just a tiny bit less suicidal

My gripe with this complaint is that invading Garlemald had to happen, due to the existence of the Tower of Babil, and I got the impression that they were trying to minimize unnecessary casualties. I agree that expecting hostility without a single casualty would be unrealistic, but military operations with the goal of minimizing them has always been a thing.

[*]We have to accept that the Far East contingent, comprised of highly trained ninjas and warriors, extremely capable of targeted strikes, forward reconnaissance, and simply open fighting, were relegated to Naruto Running communications back and forth off screen. Even though LINKSHELLS EXIST

Yeah, to be honest, the game constantly forgets the Linkshells exist. Every time a mission goal involves "Fast-travel to X location and talk to Y character", I have to question why linkshells suddenly aren't an option for the character.

[anhaato]

Here's a no doubt non-inclusive list of all of the contrivances, plot holes, and outright idiocy one has to accept in order to get through Endwalker's trainwreck of a plot. THIS is how far one's Disbelief must be Suspended

• We have to accept that 7 Rejoinings have limited Hydaelyn's ability to communicate with men, and generally weakened her, despite 7 being the same number of Rejoinings since the start of A Realm Reborn, the time when she talked to men all the time and actively protected us from the Ultima spell
• We have to accept that several formerly intelligent characters thought it wise, in the face of the Apocalypse, to have the WoL waste their time helping nerds read books in the Nerdery, taking their focus off the End of the World Tower they are uniquely qualified to deal with
• We have to accept the WoL saw an autonomous, less-than-lethal grenade drone and didn't mention it or its MANY uses to ANYONE
• Thus, we have to accept that the WoL is cannonically dumber than gibbon turds
• We have to accept that Nidhana seriously thought it was a good idea to test the anti-tempering scale herself. Risking the top of the chain of command for absolutely no benefit
• We have to accept that Alisae and Alphy were dumb enough to propose a plan to invade Garlemald without killing anyone
• We have to accept that the rest of the Scions unanimously agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that several heads of state agreed with this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept that very many volunteers gleefully stepped forth to throw their lives away on this suicidally idiotic plan
• We have to accept NO ONE MENTIONED THE CONQUERER'S CHAIN and how it would make this suicidally idiotic plan just a tiny bit less suicidal
• We have to accept that the Far East contingent, comprised of highly trained ninjas and warriors, extremely capable of targeted strikes, forward reconnaissance, and simply open fighting, were relegated to Naruto Running communications back and forth off screen. Even though LINKSHELLS EXIST
• We have to accept that Y'Shtola, formerly intelligent character, ever thought Estinien, whose only skill is stabbing, would be useful in non-fatally subduing wild zombies
• We have to accept the suicidally idiotic plan to completely non-lethally invade Garlemald actually works
• BECAUSE we have to accept that hitting people with my gigantic axe just knocks them over with Looney Toons stars around their head. Instead of killing them like it had done to everything else throughout the whole game since level bloody 1.

to be continued

Thank you for making one of my favorite series of posts ever (also if you have a really long post you can cut out the excess and edit it back in after posting)

[LordGiggles]

30 minutes of defending why island sanctuary, which sounds like little more than Doman Enclave from the features they reveal, is actually way more in depth than that they swear.

Nothing wrong with that, personally I'm really looking forward to hearing about all the new things island sanctuary isn't. Might even get a new problem that it won't address, but can't be too greedy.

Edit: Added below, because I can't stand seeing false, insulting statements going unchecked.

We have to accept that Y'Shtola, formerly intelligent character, ever thought Estinien, whose only skill is stabbing, would be useful in non-fatally subduing wild zombies

Estinien is also pretty good at jumping

[Thaciscokidd]

So! What's everybody expecting for the Live Letter on Friday?

Sample of [Golbez, Clad in Darkness Soken Mix] HOPEFULLY

6.2 MSQ preview: (not) Golbez saying something ominous about us intruders and (not) Scarmiglione volunteering. Zenos' Avatar doing something possibly meeting/spying on us, Y'sthola shot, Estinien shot, Dragon Homunculus saying something profound then name of the patch.


Criterion Dungeon Preview(maybe gameplay shown?)

Best part! Island Sanctuary finally revealed and (hopefully I'm wrong) stream chat outrage about something that we were told to temper our hype about many of time.

[ReynTime]

I still expect Criterion dungeons to not be significantly harder than Expert, and them hyping them up solely based on the party size flexibility...
This is the design team that hypes new expansion MSQ dungeons as "challenging dungeons" after all.

[SpitbreakFTW]

Ah, but you see, if they brought in the expendables, someone might have actually died and we can't have that.

I was half joking about most of that lineup, but it is REALLY baffling no one got Gaius involved. From an in-universe perspective, he's a tremendous swordsman and a man of great focus and determination. He'd be perfect to bring along to a fight in Emotionscape. From a meta-perspective he'd be perfect to bring because MAYBE I could believe for five seconds that any sacrifice he committed would actually stick. But the writers just kinda FORGOT the guy existed ever since he was written out of the Garlemald invasion.

Estinien is also pretty good at jumping

That's a fair point, I apologize. Still don't know how that is supposed to help subdue berserking zombies though.

My gripe with this complaint is that invading Garlemald had to happen, due to the existence of the Tower of Babil, and I got the impression that they were trying to minimize unnecessary casualties. I agree that expecting hostility without a single casualty would be unrealistic, but military operations with the goal of minimizing them has always been a thing.

My initial understanding was likewise that the goal was to MINIMIZE casualties, particularly to tempered Garleans that were otherwise civilians. And I was totally okay with that. But then we got the scene where Estinien drops some Garlean grunt and Y'Shtola chides him for even INJURING the guy because the two teenagers have said we aren't supposed to kill ANYONE. And then throughout the gameplay in that segment everyone I crack over the skull with my big ole honking axe just falls down with a boo-boo.

Instead of writing anything remotely intelligent for how our characters smartly minimized casualties, they just had The Plot Itself declare that NO ONE DIED LOL. It could be said that I'm being very uncharitable in interpreting what's being shown in that Y'Shtola and Estinien clip, and that despite it suggesting the opposite, the understanding among the characters and in the plot is that there were casualties, and we simply tried to keep them to a bare minimum. But there is still no excuse for no one bringing up the Conquerer's Chain. That is a mistake literally none of these characters could conceivably make.

Yeah, to be honest, the game constantly forgets the Linkshells exist. Every time a mission goal involves "Fast-travel to X location and talk to Y character", I have to question why linkshells suddenly aren't an option for the character.

The game forgets anything that could be a hindrance to either the plot or the padding exists whenever such a situation arises. It's laughably bad writing for any story, but particularly bad for the video game medium.

Can't wait to see what an absolute clown show FFXVI is gonna be.

[WillIrishclover]

I still expect Criterion dungeons to not be significantly harder than Expert, and them hyping them up solely based on the party size flexibility...
This is the design team that hypes new expansion MSQ dungeons as "challenging dungeons" after all.

lol some people really believe those will be 'savage' dungeons, the fact they can scale to party size literally rules that out. People are going to be very disappointed

[Rulakir]

Here's a no doubt non-inclusive list of all of the contrivances, plot holes, and outright idiocy one has to accept in order to get through Endwalker's trainwreck of a plot. THIS is how far one's Disbelief must be Suspended

I could've suspended disbelief for most of it, but not:

1) The Scions' admiration of Hydaelyn despite her being an amalgamation of antagonistic ideologies they have historically opposed. They do unfortunately have a history of zealotry towards her dating back to ARR. However, Krile goes from supposedly being skeptical of Hydaelyn's nature and motivations to embracing her wholeheartedly because she was just too charming to resist (and the game does not attribute this to tempering). Not a single Scion gives a sanctimonious speech about how wrong her methods were or the fact that they're benefactors in a literal crime against humanity. Nor do they address the deeper implications of that given they're supposed to be our moral paragons in the game.





2) The conflict between the presentation of Hermes (villain) and Venat (heroine) despite not only their motives (dissatisfaction with Ancient society) and results (end of Ancient civilization) being similar. Why is one bad and one good? Yoshi-P even compares Venat to the Ascians and, again, I'm left wondering why she's not also bad when she's guilty for as much and more while having less sympathetic intent.

3) The reasons for the sundering as a whole were not sufficient. Quoting Lurina from the lore forum: "The more controversial a plot element, the tighter the plot has to be to get people to accept it in good faith, and 'cultural genocide was the right call to save the world' is about as close to maximum controversy as you can get. I think the fact that these forums, the comments on Venat's entry in the JP character poll, and pretty much everywhere else the story is being discussed are filled with people expressing discomfort or irritation with it self-evident proof that the writers didn't quite make it."

4) Nobody being angry with Venat after the fact. The WoL clearly cared about Emet and Hyth, they trusted Venat to do the right thing, and she arguably didn't (don't @ me with tImE lOoP). The WoL nevertheless is "fond" of her. Emet, who is everywhere presented as having suffered through 12k years of "hatred and heartbreak", waffles between taking digs at her (I only accept the reason he wasn't furious is because he'd either already gotten it out of his system or, like Brinne said, didn't want to upset the WoL) and commending her, which was so inconsistent with his character it wasn't believable. We got more bitterness out of Elidibus, who died never learning the truth.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some things that may come to me after I post this. :P

[CrownySuccubus]

2) The conflict between the presentation of Hermes (villain) and Venat (heroine) despite not only their motives (dissatisfaction with Ancient society) and results (end of Ancient civilization) being similar. Why is one bad and one good? Yoshi-P even compares Venat to the Ascians and, again, I'm left wondering why she's not also bad when she's guilty for as much and more while having less sympathetic intent.

That's just it -- according to the writers themselves, they didn't intend EITHER of them to be considered "bad". They use terms like "mistake" and "important first step" to describe Hermes' actions. To the writers, the Ancients are not a group of people unfairly and unjustly murdered, they're a group of wannabe gods that thought themselves above suffering and death before being ready for it.

As I've mentioned, there's a sort of "human worship" that the story fully buys into, whereas the present day humankind (that is, all intelligent species) are inherently better or more worthy than other forms of life. Avoiding that was why I was hoping that END didn't devolve into "punch God with the power of friendship" that most other JRPGS do, but it arguably did something just as bad with "Something else already punched our strawman for God, so now punch THAT instead with the power of friendship".

the comments on Venat's entry in the JP character poll

I missed this. When/where did this happen?

My initial understanding was likewise that the goal was to MINIMIZE casualties, particularly to tempered Garleans that were otherwise civilians. And I was totally okay with that. But then we got the scene where Estinien drops some Garlean grunt and Y'Shtola chides him for even INJURING the guy because the two teenagers have said we aren't supposed to kill ANYONE. And then throughout the gameplay in that segment everyone I crack over the skull with my big ole honking axe just falls down with a boo-boo.

Instead of writing anything remotely intelligent for how our characters smartly minimized casualties, they just had The Plot Itself declare that NO ONE DIED LOL. It could be said that I'm being very uncharitable in interpreting what's being shown in that Y'Shtola and Estinien clip, and that despite it suggesting the opposite, the understanding among the characters and in the plot is that there were casualties, and we simply tried to keep them to a bare minimum. But there is still no excuse for no one bringing up the Conquerer's Chain. That is a mistake literally none of these characters could conceivably make.

Eh. I can see the problem, sure. But I guess it didn't bother me any more than the 10,000 other missions we do where our mission is to spar with or weaken some type of target without killing them. If I can shoot somebody with a steampunk shotgun at short range and have them just down on their knees and panting in the next cutscene, I've already checked out of expecting realistic wounds regardless of the level of violence.