What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[CrownySuccubus]

It's not as though I had no dissonance towards elements of FFXIV's plot before EW - I just didn't feel they were egregious enough for me to log onto these forums and start ranting my head off until the Hydaelyn stuff. For example, I think Merlwyb and Hien are terrible people, and scoffed every time my WoL beamed at and played nice with them.

Hoo boy...you and me both, Sister.

EDIT: Before EW, my biggest "WTF" moment of dissonance was the Level 60-70 Samurai plotline.

"No we can't rebel against this corrupt government that literally burns dissidents alive and keeps certain citizens in abject poverty because...um....war is bad."

ME: "Did....Did I suddenly start playing some other expansion not named 'Stormblood' here?"

[Brinne]

Hoo boy...you and me both, Sister.

EDIT: Before EW, my biggest "WTF" moment of dissonance was the Level 60-70 Samurai plotline.

"No we can't rebel against this corrupt government that literally burns dissidents alive and keeps certain citizens in abject poverty because...um....war is bad."

ME: "Did....Did I suddenly start playing some other expansion not named 'Stormblood' here?"

I was squinting hard at Hien the second his introductory plotline amounted to "I am going to take advantage of these people (who saved my life and sheltered me for years, btw) and their culture and manipulate them into being footsoldiers for my war that they have no involvement in because there's a loophole in their ritual to claim power lol!" and this was treated with completely uncritical positivity. It did not get much better after that, especially the Yotsuyu stuff. The Samurai questline was... something, too, though, to be sure. Look, whatever the WoL decides to do is what's morally correct - nevermind that the WoL generally just goes along with the first person to ask them to help their side, okay? (No, I still have not forgotten the very beginning of the game when Gridania had me murder a bunch of Qiqirn for the crime of stealing an egg.)

[CrownySuccubus]

I was squinting hard at Hien the second his introductory plotline amounted to "I am going to take advantage of these people (who saved my life and sheltered me for years, btw) and their culture and manipulate them into being footsoldiers for my war that they have no involvement in because there's a loophole in their ritual to claim power lol!" and this was treated with completely uncritical positivity.

I'm going to admit that I completely overlooked all of that.

Probably because my vision was obscured by the giant hearts appearing in front of my eyes whenever Sadu Heavensflame was onscreen.

It did not get much better after that, especially the Yotsuyu stuff.

I'm curious to know your exact objections to the Yotsuyu plotline.

[Brinne]

I'm going to admit that I completely overlooked all of that.

Probably because my vision was obscured by the giant hearts appearing in front of my eyes whenever Sadu Heavensflame was onscreen.

Perfectly understandable! Have a nice day.

I'm curious to know your exact objections to the Yotsuyu plotline.

The Yotsuyu plotline, in regards to Hien, wanted to have its cake and eat it too - it wanted pathos for Yotsuyu on the basis of her abuse at the hands of Doma and its entrenched systems as a country, and pretend it was making some kind of deep, emotional point about them, but it didn't want Hien, its ruler and someone too privileged to have ever had to deal with that corruption, to be accountable for any of it. This includes overlooking and not naming that Hien's father was overseeing the country as these abusive systems, sex trafficking included, flourished - Hien continues to hero worship and do things in honor of his father unabashedly after Yotsuyu's story comes out - and making sure Hien only needs to say the absolute vaguest "oh we'll make the country better" platitudes, and nothing concrete, no real plan of action or indication of exactly how Yotsuyu's story may have impacted him. And for all of Yotsuyu's rage, none of it is actually directed at Hien, and she and Hien share no compelling scenes together, despite being the key players of Doma. Like him, the writing with her is careful to keep it at a vague "Doma as a country (and also Asashi because he's a safe target deliberately made to be hateable) sucks" and not point any fingers or step on the toes of any real, breathing characters we might know and like and who might actually be held meaningfully accountable.

And, of course, the fun bit where Hien's comment on Yotsuyu's rapist amounts to: "Well, as far as I've known him he's a good person, so I can't judge him" is the lovely cherry on top. Get out of here, dude.

[CrownySuccubus]

This includes overlooking and not naming that Hien's father was overseeing the country as these abusive systems, sex trafficking included, flourished - Hien continues to hero worship and do things in honor of his father unabashedly after Yotsuyu's story comes out - and making sure Hien only needs to say the absolute vaguest "oh we'll make the country better" platitudes, and nothing concrete, no real plan of action or indication of exactly how Yotsuyu's story may have impacted him.

And, of course, the fun bit where Hien's comment on Yotsuyu's rapist amounts to: "Well, as far as I've known him he's a good person, so I can't judge him" is the lovely cherry on top. Get out of here, dude.

.....And here's the part where I force myself not to go into another diatribe about certain real-life parallels and events.

In all seriousness, though, that is a very well-articulated and thoroughly-explained reasoning for something that I always felt gnawing at me on the Yotsuyu plotline, but just couldn't quite put my finger on. As someone who is aware of those certain real-life events which mirror this (and the story seems to be trying to justify to uncomfortable levels), I'm actually ashamed and humbled that I didn't notice this until you pointed it out.

But yeah...that is some major whattheeff-ery.

[Brinne]

.....And here's the part where I force myself not to go into another diatribe about certain real-life parallels and events.

In all seriousness, though, that is a very well-articulated and thoroughly-explained reasoning for something that I always felt gnawing at me on the Yotsuyu plotline, but just couldn't quite put my finger on. As someone who is aware of those certain real-life events which mirror this (and the story seems to be trying to justify to uncomfortable levels), I'm actually ashamed and humbled that I didn't notice this until you pointed it out.

But yeah...that is some major whattheeff-ery.

I mean, I've really enjoyed and feel like I've gotten a lot of insight from several of your posts and thoughts, too, so I hope that feeling at least doesn't plague you for too long!

(Hien sucks soooooo much, though)

[Misplaced_Marbles]

(No, I still have not forgotten the very beginning of the game when Gridania had me murder a bunch of Qiqirn for the crime of stealing an egg.)

At least they have a good reason for that, namely, the fact that the elementals would flip out and kill everyone...or so the lore and characters keep stating, regardless of the fact they never do much of anything (until the plot demands they do SOMETHING), even though there's been lot worse slights and desecrations happening in their little forest.

[CrownySuccubus]

At least they have a good reason for that, namely, the fact that the elementals would flip out and kill everyone...or so the lore and characters keep stating, regardless of the fact they never do much of anything (until the plot demands they do SOMETHING), even though there's been lot worse slights and desecrations happening in their little forest.

Yeah, but even then, every single plot involving the Elementals and the Padjals treats the Elementals as gracious, benevolent benefactors who have kindly allowed the people of the shroud to NOT be genocided. While the story does make it clear that the Elementals are temperamental and have an almost childlike cognitive level of discourse and coping, it still wants to portray them as truly magnanimous beings who have done the Gridanians a solid by allowing them to continue breathing oxygen.

[jameseoakes]

Yeah, but even then, every single plot involving the Elementals and the Padjals treats the Elementals as gracious, benevolent benefactors who have kindly allowed the people of the shroud to NOT be genocided. While the story does make it clear that the Elementals are temperamental and have an almost childlike cognitive level of discourse and coping, it still wants to portray them as truly magnanimous beings who have done the Gridanians a solid by allowing them to continue breathing oxygen.

I think that very much is the idea, the Gridanians very much get to live there as long as the elementals permit and when provoked there wrath is horrendous so the Grindanians treat them with a lot of reverence and I guess as they can recall what they had to do before the elementals let them live there they regard it as a well made deal if a dangerous one. (would be nice to have explored it more)

[ReynTime]

Why is what Hien did in the steppe that much worse than convincing Ishgard to get involved in the war against Garlemald?