What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

She's stepped down from lead MSQ writer, which is the concern. She may have written the outline for the next 10 years, but I don't know what to expect from these "junior writers" who will be taking over supposedly. Were it Maehiro coming back, I'd be a lot more enthusiastic. That's also assuming Yoshi-P can stop meddling and let the writers do their jobs.

Honestly, I'm not sure at this point what Ishikawa's role on the team is going to be at this point. At first it seemed from her off-hand comments that she'd be stepping down, and now it looks more like she's staying on the team, though we don't know in what capacity? At the very least, she does have a lot of influence, and - IIRC - has mentioned she's going to be working on the stuff that continues to "clarify" and handle aspects of EW's story. I can understand your concerns, though. (Personally, I like Maehiro's work, but Heavensward, while solid and admirable, didn't personally engage me nearly as hard as Shadowbringers or the parts I enjoyed of Endwalker.)

How did you feel about the positing of Hermes and the Final Days being some kind of net positive for the world?

As for Hermes, I completely disagree with that reading of Hermes's actions, but it didn't really make me angry, either, as I sort of took the way he was positioned in this quest in particular as having some meta element in it: first off, pointing out that if we're praising Venat, it follows that we must praise Hermes as well, and also, Omega was basically acting as contrarian to the general fandom (and MSQ narrative at large) - the reception/treatment of Emet/Venat skews positive, so it points out the harmful aspects of their actions, and it's the opposite of Hermes.

Trying to wrangle something positive out of Hermes's actions re: the Final Days is an extreme stretch for me, to put it mildly, but I can tolerate this sort of thing as long as it's not being forced upon me and is treated more like a thought exercise. It is true that Hermes's actions played a key role in shaping the events leading to the present we play the game in, just like the Sundering and the Rejoinings.

Once again, though, I understand people who find the continued sympathy extended towards Hermes - and asking us to give him certain forms of benefits of the doubt that aren't well-supported by the text - extremely frustrating.

[Rulakir]

I dunno. The fact that Yoshi P's reaction to how the "junior writers" handled Y'shtola in 6.1 can be summarized as "Guys, what kind of amateurish fan fiction is this?!" gives me some modicum of hope.

Aren't he and Ishikawa responsible for that though? Her for giving the junior writers full freedom and him for wanting something 'light' after 6.0? It's quite possible I'm also just being overly pessimistic. :P Yoshi-P has admitted to having a hand in a few things I didn't like about EW (and I suspect others). Not to mention him hamstringing Matsuno. Ishikawa is capable of better and we also know that Yoshi-P rushed this storyline that she thought would be going to 8.0. It's good to see that he wants to maintain some character integrity (yet uses fan favorite Emet as his mouthpiece), but I'm not confident.

Once again, though, I understand people who find the continued sympathy extended towards Hermes - and asking us to give him certain forms of benefits of the doubt that aren't well-supported by the text - extremely frustrating.

Mostly because it feels like one step forward and two steps back. We're finally able to have the nuance with Venat that was so desperately needed throughout 6.0 only for Hermes to now be presented as having had a positive benefit. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter though. It's difficult to tell at this point what's intended anymore and after EW I tend to take the most negative view. Not to mention, if you haven't seen the discussions about it, there have been a substantial amount translation inconsistencies to the point that I'm having to run everything by a FR friend to see if I'm getting the whole story in EN.

I'm glad there's going to be more clarification. Even the Watcher dialog at the end is being picked apart. I'm sitting here thinking we're all desperate for answers and we're still getting ambiguity.

[Xirean]

Not to mention, if you haven't seen the discussions about it, there have been a substantial amount translation inconsistencies to the point that I'm having to run everything by a FR friend to see if I'm getting the whole story in EN.

I'm glad there's going to be more clarification. Even the Watcher dialog at the end is being picked apart. I'm sitting here thinking we're all desperate for answers and we're still getting ambiguity.

This I think is a big part of the issue. EW was advertised as the end AND the answers. At this point the only thing I want ambiguity on is new concepts. Everything that was introduced before 6.0 or in 6.0 should imo be solved. It's very aggravating to not know, or at least the not knowing adds to the frustration of the known problems.

[Brinne]

Mostly because it feels like one step forward and two steps back. We're finally able to have the nuance with Venat that was so desperately needed throughout 6.0 only for Hermes to now be presented as having had a positive benefit. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter though. It's difficult to tell at this point what's intended anymore and after EW I tend to take the most negative view. Not to mention, if you haven't seen the discussions about it, there have been a substantial amount translation inconsistencies to the point that I'm having to run everything by a FR friend to see if I'm getting the whole story in EN.

Mm, I guess for me it's more like EW was like, six steps back, and this was more a step towards where it was before, if anything. It's not as though I had no dissonance towards elements of FFXIV's plot before EW - I just didn't feel they were egregious enough for me to log onto these forums and start ranting my head off until the Hydaelyn stuff. For example, I think Merlwyb and Hien are terrible people, and scoffed every time my WoL beamed at and played nice with them. So I suppose for me that this most recent treatment of Hermes is comparable to that - actually, probably a bit of a step up compared to the likes of Merlwyb and Hien, since it's still more "this person was terrible, but could there have been something positive to glean out of their bullshit once all is said and done if you tilt your head and squint?" as opposed to unabashed positivity.

Translation difficulties are pretty obnoxious, though, yes. I'm generally on-board with most forms of translation and localization freedom, but I'd hope it was obvious at this point what lore elements are going to be under extreme scrutiny by the fanbase and appropriate care is applied, lol.

[CrownySuccubus]

It's not as though I had no dissonance towards elements of FFXIV's plot before EW - I just didn't feel they were egregious enough for me to log onto these forums and start ranting my head off until the Hydaelyn stuff. For example, I think Merlwyb and Hien are terrible people, and scoffed every time my WoL beamed at and played nice with them.

Hoo boy...you and me both, Sister.

EDIT: Before EW, my biggest "WTF" moment of dissonance was the Level 60-70 Samurai plotline.

"No we can't rebel against this corrupt government that literally burns dissidents alive and keeps certain citizens in abject poverty because...um....war is bad."

ME: "Did....Did I suddenly start playing some other expansion not named 'Stormblood' here?"

[Brinne]

Hoo boy...you and me both, Sister.

EDIT: Before EW, my biggest "WTF" moment of dissonance was the Level 60-70 Samurai plotline.

"No we can't rebel against this corrupt government that literally burns dissidents alive and keeps certain citizens in abject poverty because...um....war is bad."

ME: "Did....Did I suddenly start playing some other expansion not named 'Stormblood' here?"

I was squinting hard at Hien the second his introductory plotline amounted to "I am going to take advantage of these people (who saved my life and sheltered me for years, btw) and their culture and manipulate them into being footsoldiers for my war that they have no involvement in because there's a loophole in their ritual to claim power lol!" and this was treated with completely uncritical positivity. It did not get much better after that, especially the Yotsuyu stuff. The Samurai questline was... something, too, though, to be sure. Look, whatever the WoL decides to do is what's morally correct - nevermind that the WoL generally just goes along with the first person to ask them to help their side, okay? (No, I still have not forgotten the very beginning of the game when Gridania had me murder a bunch of Qiqirn for the crime of stealing an egg.)

[CrownySuccubus]

I was squinting hard at Hien the second his introductory plotline amounted to "I am going to take advantage of these people (who saved my life and sheltered me for years, btw) and their culture and manipulate them into being footsoldiers for my war that they have no involvement in because there's a loophole in their ritual to claim power lol!" and this was treated with completely uncritical positivity.

I'm going to admit that I completely overlooked all of that.

Probably because my vision was obscured by the giant hearts appearing in front of my eyes whenever Sadu Heavensflame was onscreen.

It did not get much better after that, especially the Yotsuyu stuff.

I'm curious to know your exact objections to the Yotsuyu plotline.

[Brinne]

I'm going to admit that I completely overlooked all of that.

Probably because my vision was obscured by the giant hearts appearing in front of my eyes whenever Sadu Heavensflame was onscreen.

Perfectly understandable! Have a nice day.

I'm curious to know your exact objections to the Yotsuyu plotline.

The Yotsuyu plotline, in regards to Hien, wanted to have its cake and eat it too - it wanted pathos for Yotsuyu on the basis of her abuse at the hands of Doma and its entrenched systems as a country, and pretend it was making some kind of deep, emotional point about them, but it didn't want Hien, its ruler and someone too privileged to have ever had to deal with that corruption, to be accountable for any of it. This includes overlooking and not naming that Hien's father was overseeing the country as these abusive systems, sex trafficking included, flourished - Hien continues to hero worship and do things in honor of his father unabashedly after Yotsuyu's story comes out - and making sure Hien only needs to say the absolute vaguest "oh we'll make the country better" platitudes, and nothing concrete, no real plan of action or indication of exactly how Yotsuyu's story may have impacted him. And for all of Yotsuyu's rage, none of it is actually directed at Hien, and she and Hien share no compelling scenes together, despite being the key players of Doma. Like him, the writing with her is careful to keep it at a vague "Doma as a country (and also Asashi because he's a safe target deliberately made to be hateable) sucks" and not point any fingers or step on the toes of any real, breathing characters we might know and like and who might actually be held meaningfully accountable.

And, of course, the fun bit where Hien's comment on Yotsuyu's rapist amounts to: "Well, as far as I've known him he's a good person, so I can't judge him" is the lovely cherry on top. Get out of here, dude.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

(No, I still have not forgotten the very beginning of the game when Gridania had me murder a bunch of Qiqirn for the crime of stealing an egg.)

At least they have a good reason for that, namely, the fact that the elementals would flip out and kill everyone...or so the lore and characters keep stating, regardless of the fact they never do much of anything (until the plot demands they do SOMETHING), even though there's been lot worse slights and desecrations happening in their little forest.

[CrownySuccubus]

At least they have a good reason for that, namely, the fact that the elementals would flip out and kill everyone...or so the lore and characters keep stating, regardless of the fact they never do much of anything (until the plot demands they do SOMETHING), even though there's been lot worse slights and desecrations happening in their little forest.

Yeah, but even then, every single plot involving the Elementals and the Padjals treats the Elementals as gracious, benevolent benefactors who have kindly allowed the people of the shroud to NOT be genocided. While the story does make it clear that the Elementals are temperamental and have an almost childlike cognitive level of discourse and coping, it still wants to portray them as truly magnanimous beings who have done the Gridanians a solid by allowing them to continue breathing oxygen.