Has anyone quit healing?

[MintnHoney]

And for reference: "enjoy playing healers" means "enjoy healing". If we enjoyed dealing damage and complex damage rotations, we'd all be playing DPSers. What YOU seem to want is to be a DPSer with some oGCD heals so you can benefit from healer ques.

Far be it from me to step into this unwanted, but that's... an odd thing to take from Semirhage's statement. They're advocating (and have always been) that WHM shouldn't just be made into an idiot job just because someone (you, apparently) decide we need one, therefore WHM should be that. In fact, if any job should be the job that keeps the "211111..." gameplay, it should be AST, so long as the focus remains on the cards.
If you're not advocating for making the WHM into an idiot job, then, excuse me; however, for someone so focused on correcting others and being so wildly specific about keeping details accurate, you're failing to establish that in your argument.

That said, there's no reason why any job should just be an idiot job at all, to be honest. There are many ways to keep a job's skill floor entry-level friendly without enforcing a lobotomy, while allowing room between it and the skill ceiling. The gradually declining space between the floor and ceiling is the reason why players, at least as attested to in this thread, generally tend to leave the healer role for something that they feel has room for growth and rewarding/fun gameplay, even if they usually enjoy healing.

[Renathras]

<some personal insults alongside some otherwise good discussion topics>

No, Semirhage's point seems to be that they like doing damage and want a more buttons damage kit. It has nothing to do with being an "idiot" or not.

AST also makes no sense for the simple gameplay, since the point of having a simple Job is for it to be...simple...and AST isn't. As I noted above, WHM has the most straightforward and direct healing kit. I contrasted Tetra and Essential Dignity to make this point, but I can pick out just about any other set of comparable abilities and show that the AST ones have more nuance and the WHM ones are straighforward "just the facts, ma'am" abilities to do the job at hand.

Enjoying healing tends to mean enjoying healing...not enjoying dpsing. Indeed, many people that play healers (and to a lesser extent, tanks) in MMOs do so explicitly because they find DPS rotations unsatisfying or unenjoyable to perform.

But hey, since you don't like my suggestion, I guess it means you prefer the alternative? STICKING WITH WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WITH NO CHANGES?

Because make no mistake, that IS the alternative. In making the perfect the enemy of the good, you sacrifice any shot at your perfect. I'm perfectly content with everything remaining as it is today, too. By your words, I would wager you are not. What I'm proposing is the compromise position.

[MintnHoney]

No, Semirhage's point seems to be that they like doing damage and want a more buttons damage kit. It has nothing to do with being an "idiot" or not.

Based on what? Because they don't like WHM being defaulted to automatically being the simple job that stays dumbed down because "there has to be one?"

AST also makes no sense for the simple gameplay, since the point of having a simple Job is for it to be...simple...and AST isn't.

Some parts can remain simple to make room for complicated pieces; a simple GCD kit, i.e., simplified general gameplay that an entry level healer would generally be putting around with, is perfect for AST to allow players at the entry level to heal while an emphasis on cards would allow growth without hurting the skill floor.

As I noted above, WHM has the most straightforward and direct healing kit. I contrasted Tetra and Essential Dignity to make this point, but I can pick out just about any other set of comparable abilities and show that the AST ones have more nuance and the WHM ones are straighforward "just the facts, ma'am" abilities to do the job at hand.

Indeed, and things can be improved and added so that there's kit interactivity, or a proper rotation, without taking away from the basic structure of the basic healer kit, so that, WHM, too, can be fun to play for various skill levels and not just the ones sucking on their thumbs.

Enjoying healing tends to mean enjoying healing...not enjoying dpsing. Indeed, many people that play healers (and to a lesser extent, tanks) in MMOs do so explicitly because they find DPS rotations unsatisfying or unenjoyable to perform.

And many of those people who play healer classes in MMOs also tend to get to enjoy gameplay where they aren't infantilized. Multi-tasking is usually the name of the game in healer MMO gameplay, which usually does include juggling DPS along with other management and tool use.
Unfortunately, FFXIV goes against that, with a non-traditional healing model that tries to inject the feeling of a JRPG into an MMORPG, and it just doesn't work 1:1 without other requirements being met.

But hey, since you don't like my suggestion, I guess it means you prefer the alternative? STICKING WITH WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WITH NO CHANGES?

Actually, I didn't say anything about your "suggestion" as a whole, but sure. I'll be in the "I don't like your suggestion" camp, but raise you a "there are people out there with better ideas than you've put forth, and, after your display, I'd wager that there are even ideas that are even better than that which you will likely never be able to fathom" to go along with it.

Because make no mistake, that IS the alternative. In making the perfect the enemy of the good, you sacrifice any shot at your perfect. I'm perfectly content with everything remaining as it is today, too. By your words, I would wager you are not. What I'm proposing is the compromise position.

Your uncompromising take on all things is not the only alternative, no matter how much you want to disregard other avenues. Given that you are not the developer, and given that this is a discussion forum with other participants, by default, there are many different alternatives, no matter how personally insulted you may be.

[Renathras]

Based on what?

Based on any discussion alternatives that aren't "make the DPS kit more involved" being met with scorn.

Some parts can remain simple to make room for complicated pieces;

"The simple parts allow more complex parts to not be as overwhelming" isn't simple, though. The complex parts make it...not simple. I do agree that if we gave SCH/AST/SGE more complex kits, AST should be the simplest to allow for their Card play. It's why I think AST should have a static 1-2-3 rotation, possibly with a DoT to refresh here and there.

Indeed, and things can be improved and added so that there's kit interactivity,

There IS kit interactivity, just not with their damage kit. And I'll note you can't resist the urge to make personal attacks...

And many of those people who play healer classes in MMOs also tend to get to enjoy gameplay where they aren't infantilized.

No one is being "infantilized". The problem I have with people arguing from your side of this issue is that none of you seem able to resist urges to attack people as bads, babies, or invalids.

Multi-tasking is usually the name of the game in healer MMO gameplay, which usually does include juggling DPS along with other management and tool use.

Mulit-tasking is. Juggling DPS is not. Most MMO healers have extremely basic DPS kits that they use when soloing and either don't use at all in group content or use very very minimally as filler. As I've noted, the difference in FFXIV is how little actual healing needs to be done and how healing oGCDs are so powerful they can deal with it without needing GCD heals. Note that all the people insisting there is a 11111 rotation seem to fail to realize that if they're weaving oGCDs in there, it's not 11111, it's 12134151161211371181914 and so on. Those are buttons that must be pressed. If you look at JUST the GCDs, most Jobs in this game have between 2 and 7 that they push often. WHM has (in single target fights) 3. GNB has 6. WAR has 5. SMN has 3 (because of how Gemshine and Astral Flow work), and so on. The oGCDs are what make the game in a lot of ways, but especially for Tanks and Healers and is what is different vs something like WoW where the GCD is shorter but oGCDs don't exist.

Actually, I didn't say anything about your "suggestion" as a whole, but sure. I'll be in the "I don't like your suggestion" camp, but raise you a "there are people out there with better ideas than you've put forth, and, after your display, I'd wager that there are even ideas that are even better than that which you will likely never be able to fathom" to go along with it.

You REALLY can't help yourself from making personal attacks, can you? Do you even know what my suggestion is? No, you're just attacking it as an extension of attacking me. It could be something you'd agree with if you delved into it, but no, personal attack trumps reason. My "display" is trying to be reasonable and offer compromise solutions to people that want to get 100% of everything their way, aren't interested in competing positions nor in compromise, and react toxicly to anyone who doesn't share their position. Look through this thread and you can see anytime someone says they like the current model or would like small changes to it but not the kind you ask for, how they're attacked and people attacking them (often quoting them out of context or on technicalities) get double digit updoots. Apparently, people trying to be calm and reasonable and offer compromises but who AT ALL like the current model or who dislike DPSing and don't want more DPS forced on them are to be tarred, feathered, and run out of the forum on a rail.

Your uncompromising take

How on earth is my take "uncompromising"?! o.O Genuine question. My "take" is "make some of the healers much more complex, some a bit more complex, and one leave at the current level of complexity". How is that "uncompromising" in any way? The one being uncompromising here is you with your "I get everything I want and you get nothing, otherwise I'm bored and unsatisfied and you're a little baby anyway"?

on all things is not the only alternative, no matter how much you want to disregard other avenues. Given that you are not the developer

No, the Devs have already said they aren't giving you want you want. So the alternative to what I propose - my proposal being the compromise position - is the Devs just continuing to do what they've been doing and YOU getting nothing.

The situation is not "You get what you want OR we go half-way to what you want". The situation is "You get NOTHING that you want OR we go half-way to what you want". The status quo is what the Devs have indicated they want. So it is the alternative in question vs the compromise.

No matter how personally insulted you may be.

[Silverbane]

Referring to Mintnhoney:

You REALLY can't help yourself from making personal attacks, can you?

No, Mintnhoney can't, even taking to posting personal attacks on me on threads I'm not even involved with. This seems typical for the people complaining about healing. It's their attempt at cancel culture, at drowning out/driving off anyone who disagrees with them. But that's fine; their antics are not going to impress the JP developers.

The commonality in the complaints about healers in FFXIV is that the complainers all want healers to be more important, or even worse, necessary. Many no doubt long for the days when a healer was so necessary, they could grief a DF party by simply letting people who didn't please them die.

Those days are gone forever. SE has made so that most Light Party content can be cleared with any three of the party members, and most Full Party content can be cleared with any seven (or even six) of the party members. This is intentional.

Anyone with enough play time has seen this plenty times: finishing a Light Party dungeon after a tank, healer, or DPS has DC'd, after of course a respectful wait for them to come back. And on most eight and twenty-four man content, no one seems to care that someone has DC'd.

This is SE's goal, so that the presence in a DF party of a griefer, a dick healer, or just a new sprout who doesn't know their role yet won't drive new players away from the game.

One part of accomplishing this goal was reducing unavoidable damage and giving tanks and DPS more healing and mitigation capability. So the other party members are no longer dependent on the healer for their survival, they just need to stay out of stupid, do some of the mechanics, and use their own self-heal and mitigation buffs.

Because the complainers here fail to understand the above, they keep demanding things SE will never do. And SE, rightly, will ignore them, and not just because their rude spoiled-brat behavior here is not tolerated in adults in Japanese culture.

[Punslinger]

And for reference: "enjoy playing healers" means "enjoy healing". If we enjoyed dealing damage and complex damage rotations, we'd all be playing DPSers. What YOU seem to want is to be a DPSer with some oGCD heals so you can benefit from healer ques.

If I enjoyed effortlessly winning by mashing one button, I'd play Cookie Clicker.

I've linked to my refutation of this talking point multiple times now, might as well do it again.

Give it a read and maybe you'll understand why we're asking for better DPS rotations. It's hard to "enjoy healing" when healing is flat-out not necessary in anything below P3S. It's hard to "enjoy healing" when dungeon bosses hit like a wet noodle, tank self-sustain lets them solo Normal raids, and healers have kits bloated with multiple copies of the same spell (do you want Cure 2, oGCD Cure 2, instant-cast Cure 2, or two Cure 2s in a trenchcoat - a.k.a. Benediction?), that massively outweigh incoming damage in 95% of the game content. It's hard to "enjoy healing" when, contra YoshiderP's assertions, healer DPS has been mathematically proven to be necessary in at least some Savage tiers.

In such a scenario, healing is largely irrelevant. DPS becomes the only thing that matters, because it's the only thing incentivized by the game design. Don't like it? Blame Square, not us.

But hey, since you don't like my suggestion, I guess it means you prefer the alternative? STICKING WITH WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WITH NO CHANGES?

The only alternative to a logical argument is a Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. There are no other options. /s

No one is being "infantilized". The problem I have with people arguing from your side of this issue is that none of you seem able to resist urges to attack people as bads, babies, or invalids.

The infantilization is coming from Square. YoshiderP has stated he doesn't want to "stress" healers by asking them to, y'know, do their job. He defends deleting healer DPS skills because "healers should focus on healing," then defends content that doesn't ask healers to heal, and gives tank and DPS jobs healing skills, all in the name of not "stressing" the widdle babby heawers uwu.

Most MMO healers have extremely basic DPS kits that they use when soloing and either don't use at all in group content or use very very minimally as filler.

I'll take, "Things a Disc Priest would never say," for $400, Alex.

[Renathras]

Let's break this down...

If I enjoyed effortlessly winning by mashing one button

No healer damage kit in FFXIV is one button.

It's hard to "enjoy healing" when healing is flat-out not necessary in anything below P3S.

Healing IS necessary, it's just trivial. That's the problem, and I've said I agree with that point many times.

It's hard to "enjoy healing" when dungeon bosses hit like a wet noodle, tank self-sustain lets them solo Normal raids, and healers have kits bloated with multiple copies of the same spell (do you want Cure 2, oGCD Cure 2, instant-cast Cure 2, or two Cure 2s in a trenchcoat - a.k.a. Benediction?)

Okay, two Cure 2s in a trenchcoat made me laugh. I think the problem is again the above - too little healing is required and our oGCD kits are arguably too powerful - combined with the Dev team running out of ideas IN SOME CASES. They strive to make the healers unique, so you end up with some healers being rather bland. This is MAINLY a problem with WHM (3.5x Cure 2s, 2x Medicas;3 if you include Assize) and less so with the other healers (Lustrate, Adlo, and Excog are different in how they work and their potencies whereas C2/Tetra/Solace all have identical potencies and no secondary effects) and them feeling they need to give new abilities with levels (more than upgrades) that leads to a lot of redundancy.

In such a scenario, healing is largely irrelevant. DPS becomes the only thing that matters, because it's the only thing incentivized by the game design. Don't like it? Blame Square, not us.

Somewhat agreed. And I have. But my solition is not the same as yours.

EDIT:

The only alternative to a logical argument is a Fallacy of the Excluded Middle. There are no other options. /s

The problem is, my position IS the middle. It's the middle between what we have now and what you want us to have. The thing is, the Devs are NOT going to go all the way to what you want, because they did that and decided they don't like it. So the middle, compromise position - which IS my position - is the alternative. The options are what we have now and what you want. That's the spectrum. My position is in the middle of that spectrum. You have this weird idea that the spectrum is my position (in the middle) to your position, but you're leaving out the half that is my position over to what we have now. You somehow think you can exclude what we have now, despite it kind of being the default/status quo position and what the Dev team seems to be most inclined to, since they doubled down on it after ShB into EW.

That doesn't really make sense.

The infantilization is coming from Square. YoshiderP has stated he doesn't want to "stress" healers by asking them to, y'know, do their job. He defends deleting healer DPS skills because "healers should focus on healing," then defends content that doesn't ask healers to heal, and gives tank and DPS jobs healing skills, all in the name of not "stressing" the widdle babby heawers uwu.

Except he doesn't say that, you do. Saying "healers should focus on healing" and "we don't want to stress people (LEADING TO MASSIVE SHORTAGES OF A ROLE)" isn't saying "aww, widdle babby go heawwy!". The infantilization is coming from your view of the situation. Talk about the excluded middle...

I'll take, "Things a Disc Priest would never say," for $400, Alex.

Can't say Disc Priest. But where did I SAY Disc Priest? I said "Most MMO healers". In one of my posts here (possibly in another thread), I discussed Druid, Paladin, and Holy Priest damage kits. "Most MMO healers" are not Disc Priests. You pointed out the exception that proves the rule...

...and seem to have skipped all the times I've said "But I think they should make SOME of our healers in FFXIV have more complex DPS kits for the people that enjoy that gameplay." Indeed, I've outright called for SGE to have a RDM-like (without the melee phase) damage rotation and heal via Kardia, which would be like WoW Disc Priest or RIFT Chloromancer. I've advocated for the very thing you're using as the exception to debunk my position be added to FFXIV... <_<

[MintnHoney]

Based on any discussion alternatives that aren't "make the DPS kit more involved" being met with scorn.

Mm, K.

There IS kit interactivity, just not with their damage kit. And I'll note you can't resist the urge to make personal attacks...

What, the freecure proc?
And I mean, if you're a thumbsucker, more power to you.

No one is being "infantilized".

Except the entire healer role, the tank role, and, slowly, but surely, the DPS role...

The problem I have with people arguing from your side of this issue is that none of you seem able to resist urges to attack people as bads, babies, or invalids.

The problem with people like you is that you have major difficulty accepting that there are players of differing skill levels, from the lowest to the highest, and any reference to there being such is seen as a personal attack against you, whether or not you are the actual target of such words.
These things are not inherently bad things, but they all need to be considered and incorporated into the design, not just the lowest factors.

Mulit-tasking is. Juggling DPS is not.

Juggling DPS is part of the multi-tasking, so if you admit one is a part, then so is the other by default.

Note that all the people insisting there is a 11111 rotation seem to fail to realize that if they're weaving oGCDs in there, it's not 11111, it's 12134151161211371181914 and so on.

That's because the rotation is the constant. The oGCDs woven in are not necessarily constant, and, therefore, don't get included in the rotation.
Hence the rotation being only a few buttons, momentarily interrupted by any oGCDs. I don't disagree that oGCDs have to be considered, but I also agree that 211111211111 is the general rotation and does not make for a proper rotation. As long as a majority of the spell casts are just the 1, we still have a problem and I believe healers are justified in feeling the need to quit or request something more, while respecting what we currently have in place for the basic needs of the role.

You REALLY can't help yourself from making personal attacks, can you?

Apparently only as much as you can't help yourself from drawing conclusions from nothing and being offended for others like an SJW glued to their twitter feed.

Do you even know what my suggestion is?

If it didn't matter to you as to whether or not I did care before you made your emotionally charged statement, why does whether or not I know matter to you now?
With that in mind, I stand by my statements.

tarred, feathered, and run out of the forum on a rail.

No, I'd prefer to boil the skin off and pickle the rest.

How on earth is my take "uncompromising"?!

The part where you say "it's the only take," which it's not. The part where you also seem to think you know what I want, assume what everyone else wants, but, in fact, you don't exactly know. Also the part where you seem to think you know better and try to speak with authority but resort to attacking others only to be offended when someone turns it back on you or decides to speak in opposition even when not specifically against you.

No, the Devs have already said they aren't giving you want you want.

Nah, they didn't say that at all, actually. But if it makes you feel better, I doubt they'd ever give me what it is that I actually want, better still that they'll likely not give you what you're proposing.

So the alternative to what I propose - my proposal being the compromise position - is the Devs just continuing to do what they've been doing and YOU getting nothing.

I have news for you: that's not the alternative to your proposal, that is the current state of the game, and has been for years.

Meanwhile, there are other proposals out there that provide compromises that are much easier to implement and also easier to swallow for both sides, some that don't even interfere with the current state of affairs (except to allow more growth), but those likely won't be considered either. And that's the real shame.

[SargeTheSeagull]

Couldn't resist looking up this week's person-who-clearly-doesn't-know-what-they're-talking-about on the no no site and guess what I found? All greys and two greens. Yet again, the only people who like current healer design are people who don't know what they're talking about.

[SargeTheSeagull]

I won't reply with a quote because it would take far too long. Here's the thing, there are two solutions to current healer design. 1: Go back to how healers worked pre-ShB. Each healer has a comparatively in depth DPS rotation with more unique healing actions and fewer overpowered spells like pneuma and macrocosmos and redundant actions like haima/panhaima, cure/cure2/solace benefic/benefic2/aspected benefic/ED etc. or 2: Rework all content by radically increasing incoming damage in all content in the game so that healers are actually required and forced to use their toolkits in all content ever implemented to avoid difficulty spikes. The only one of these that is even feasible is option 1. Reworking every FATE, dungeon, trial, leve, raid, 24 man and most savage encounters to require healers would be more work than it's worth. The best option is what we had before 5.0. And here's the thing, even in other games where damage is CONSTANTLY hitting every member of the party and you will die without a good healer (even in dungeons) such as wow, healers have far more in-depth rotations than healers in 14.