Just remove healers.

[Azuri]

Then maybe they should solve the real problem? Tanks defensive skills should have nothing but damage mitigation tools, not a bunch of self healing tools.

But little Timmy is going to have an anxiety attack!11!

[Silver-Strider]

Then maybe they should solve the real problem? Tanks defensive skills should have nothing but damage mitigation tools, not a bunch of self healing tools.

SE's design for Tanks and Healers is pretty much awful.
While Tanks have proper rotations and are engaging enough to play, their mitigation styles are largely the same, which is mitigation+self heals. I could understand 1 Tank that can heal itself and 1 tank that heals thru doing damage but that's the design on every tank really and it's uninspired. Can't we have a Tank that is about debuffing the enemy to deal less damage or a tank that mitigates via Block/Parry with CDs that help to make those tools more effective? How about a Tank that has skills that allow it to dodge attacks, like NIN tanks in FXI?

I don't mind Tanks having self healing, they have to clear solo content too after all and self heals help with that, but they've gone overboard with Tank's self sustain in all regards.

[Semirhage]

Then maybe they should solve the real problem? Tanks defensive skills should have nothing but damage mitigation tools, not a bunch of self healing tools.

I'd say absurd tank sustain is *a* problem, but I'd hesitate to call it "the real" problem. Delete tank healing entirely, and what do you get? A few more GCD heals, then you're back to 1111111111111.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

I'd say absurd tank sustain is *a* problem, but I'd hesitate to call it "the real" problem. Delete tank healing entirely, and what do you get? A few more GCD heals, then you're back to 1111111111111.

Yes, but at least you won't be a useless green plant in most content anymore.

[QooEr]

Yes, but at least you won't be a useless green plant in most content anymore.

the bar is underground at this point

[Allegor]

Tank selfsustain in itself isn't bad, specially for solo play. The problem is that it alone covers most of the already mediocre need of healing in all non-EX/Savage/Ultimate content (and even then is debatable). If anything, I'd joke it's actually there to counter the occasional "I forget I'm the healer" healer... but I genuinely believe the devs think most healers aren't competent enough to do their own role properly, so tanks are doing it for them.

[Kabooa]

Reading through this, I wonder if healers should drop party in roulettes if they aren't having fun because the party is too skilled...

The issue with protesting like this is you need to have power for it to matter, and all your power is currently stuffed into the tanks.

[ForteNightshade]

Then maybe they should solve the real problem? Tanks defensive skills should have nothing but damage mitigation tools, not a bunch of self healing tools.

That has never been the "real problem". Back in Shadowbringers, Tanks possessed nowhere near the amount of self-sustain they do nowadays yet healers still hardly needed to heal. Even in Stormblood this an issue but a partially mitigated one due to healers actually having some additional DPS abilities. The "real problem" is content being designed to have very little heal checks, minimal outgoing damage and the dev team's belief healers would be "overwhelmed" having more DPS buttons to press.

Yes, but at least you won't be a useless green plant in most content anymore.

Does it not speak volumes on how horrendously designed healers are that a "solution" is to make tank gameplay worse just to give healers the slightest more to do that isn't spamming one button? Perhaps we should focus on fixing that one button spam issue before worrying over the tanks' self sustain.

[MintnHoney]

the dev team's belief healers would be "overwhelmed" having more DPS buttons to press.

In addition to that, the dev team's belief that healers would be unable to keep up with more outgoing damage in general, leading to us being put between the proverbial rock and hard place.

[Silverbane]

Regarding whether I as SGE can out-DPS a DPS when doing AoE:

No, you wouldn't. Good DPS burst for significantly more than healers. Either you aren't playing with good DPS players or you're assuming they aren't good when in reality they're conversing their kit for the upcoming boss or a larger pack. Assuming all things equal, if you put a DRG with everything ready to go against SGE in a ten pull pack. That DRG will outshine you by a mile.

I don't run a DRG but I do run a DNC, so to counter your evidence-free assertions of Revealed Truth, I decided to crank the numbers of DNC vs. SGE for multi-target AoE.
Conveniently, both have point-blank non-diminishing AoEs with the same radius.

First, I baselined damage per potency at Stone-Sky-Sea L60 Basic Training outside Idylshire. Both the DNC and SGE were overlevel and overgeared, so they were both synced down to the same level and iLvl.

My SGE did about 4.1 base damage per point of potency, DNC did 3.9.
Given how damage varies, they were both basically doing the same damage per potency, so comparing potencies will be indicative of the damage they do.

Calculating SGE AoE average potency for spamming Dyskrasia is easy: at this level, it's 160, every GCD. And of course, you can still heal/sheild.mitigate with oGCDs as you do. Note that if Phlegma is off CD, this number will go up.

For DNC, you need to create a Markov tree, because you have a base 2-beat rotation of 100 and 140 (proc'd) potency, a 50% chance in those two beats for each of a 140 and 180 potency attack to become available (that each consume another GCD), and a 50% chance for each of those procs to get an oGCD 100 potency AoE attack (Fan Dance II).

Do the math, and you find that DNC potency doing their AoE rotation ranges from 120 (no procs, happens relatively often) to 190 (everything procs, happens pretty rarely), with the average potency per GCD being 146.

So there you go. Under the experimental conditions above, a SGE will on average out-DPS a DNC by 10% when doing multi-target AoE.

Feel free to duplicate the experiment and the math if you can stand learning the truth.
Feel free to do it at different levels and iLvls and DPS classes; maybe the winner changes.

But this proves that all those that said I was lying or only running against incompetent DPS when I claimed to out do those DPS at AoE as an SGE are just plain wrong. And their error is either because they are too lazy or too stupid to do the math or were just being dishonest.

Edit: I note that I've neglected Standard Step in the above analysis, and if the DNC can be optimally positioned when they finish it, it will bring them closer to the SGE's output, because Standard Step is a big part of DNC's AoE damage output. Maybe someday I'll go back and add that complication to the analysis (along with the minor damage buffs available, and Phlegma for SGE to be fair) -- I don't expect anyone else here to do so, because I don't see any evidence that they have the necessary analytical skills -- but for now, the analysis clearly shows SGE's ability to contribute damage at a level comparable to a DPS in a very common situation.