The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[TaleraRistain]

How is it any different from ironworks using knowledge from a primal to time travell and potentially doom trillions? How is it any different from all the sundered placing their hopes and solutions to their problems in the hands of the WoL?Or not to mention summoning primals to fix the Empty? Sounds like another rules for thee but not for me.

I think those in the other timeline gave in to despair, too. We got the impression their world was pretty bad off. But they looked to the past like the Ancients did. I thought it was rather poetic there that as Middy had come to Etheirys because it meant hope, he was able to become the hope for that timeline and allow them to look to the future again.

Have you ever seen a situation where every is losing it except that one person? They keep things together because they have to. That's our WoL. I think that's part of why the Scions told the world they had disbanded. Time to find their own solutions for once.

As far as the Empty, I don't believe there was any indication in the story there that we were going to harm anything with summoning. We were attempting to kickstart the elements again since they had stagnated due to overexposure to Light. If you're approaching it from the idea of looking into the past, it's not really that. That land can't support life anymore. We weren't restoring it entirely to what it was before. We were making it viable to whatever life grew there from that point onward.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think those in the other timeline gave in to despair, too. We got the impression their world was pretty bad off. But they looked to the past like the Ancients did. I thought it was rather poetic there that as Middy had come to Etheirys because it meant hope, he was able to become the hope for that timeline and allow them to look to the future again.

Have you ever seen a situation where every is losing it except that one person? They keep things together because they have to. That's our WoL. I think that's part of why the Scions told the world they had disbanded. Time to find their own solutions for once.

As far as the Empty, I don't believe there was any indication in the story there that we were going to harm anything with summoning. We were attempting to kickstart the elements again since they had stagnated due to overexposure to Light. If you're approaching it from the idea of looking into the past, it's not really that. That land can't support life anymore. We weren't restoring it entirely to what it was before. We were making it viable to whatever life grew there from that point onward.

My empty point was you portrayed that summoning a god to fix your problems for you is wrong. Yet we do that very thing for the empty. As for harming....do you not remember e8? Ryne was about to cause another flood of light, and we couldnt do much to stop it. It's only because of Gaia that we're able to beat her and prevent it. The same way you're saying middy was their hope in that other timeline is the same way Zodiark was the ancient's beacon of hope. He was literally a manifestation of hope and want for salvation, this is further cemented by Elidibus. If it wasnt for him, we literally wouldnt exist. We rely on gods over and over yet somehow its only wrong when the ancients do it? Give me a break.

[TaleraRistain]

My empty point was you portrayed that summoning a god to fix your problems for you is wrong. Yet we do that very thing for the empty. As for harming....do you not remember e8? Ryne was about to cause another flood of light, and we couldnt do much to stop it. It's only because of Gaia that we're able to beat her and prevent it. The same way you're saying middy was their hope in that other timeline is the same way Zodiark was the ancient's beacon of hope. He was literally a manifestation of hope and want for salvation, this is further cemented by Elidibus. If it wasnt for him, we literally wouldnt exist. We rely on gods over and over yet somehow its only wrong when the ancients do it? Give me a break.

We had absolutely no way going into E8 to know Ryne was going to throw a nutty like that. And what we did with the ideas of the primals, since they weren't even real primals we were summoning, was similar to what Azem did in the story with Ifrita. We weren't summoning a god and expecting it to fix all our problems. We were composing the aether into something and then dispersing it for another purpose.

[ZeraSkiratea]

I think those in the other timeline gave in to despair, too. We got the impression their world was pretty bad off. But they looked to the past like the Ancients did. I thought it was rather poetic there that as Middy had come to Etheirys because it meant hope, he was able to become the hope for that timeline and allow them to look to the future again.

Have you ever seen a situation where every is losing it except that one person? They keep things together because they have to. That's our WoL. I think that's part of why the Scions told the world they had disbanded. Time to find their own solutions for once.

As far as the Empty, I don't believe there was any indication in the story there that we were going to harm anything with summoning. We were attempting to kickstart the elements again since they had stagnated due to overexposure to Light. If you're approaching it from the idea of looking into the past, it's not really that. That land can't support life anymore. We weren't restoring it entirely to what it was before. We were making it viable to whatever life grew there from that point onward.

another big difference between the ancients and the ironworks was, the ironworks worked for a "past" they woudl never experience, a world they knew they would NOT profit off, they knew it couldpotentialy lead ot their own end, to being reduced to never haivng existed in the first place

The people who finished the timemachinethingy(not necesserly the people who started it), where, 100% selfless in the regard in that they worked for a world, a future, and a past, they know they could never experience themself.


They doomed potentially millions of not billions of people, but they also doomed themself, they knew it, and they accepted it.


The ancients on the other hand, where willing to doom others(the "new life" whatever that may be) to create benefit for themself
yes they "sacrificed half their numbers" but what, pray tell, was their intention later? to get those souls back, nothing would have been "sacrificed" in the end outside of unwilling, third party "new life"
The ancients acted solely for their own benefit(and as much as that extended to the "star" in their arrogance of being "the shephards of the star")completly intending to reap a reward from their work.
thats the big difference between the ironworks in the eighty umbral, and the Ancients, the end intend of "profit"

[TaleraRistain]

another big difference between the ancients and the ironworks was, the ironworks worked for a "past" they woudl never experience, a world they knew they would NOT profit off, they knew it couldpotentialy lead ot their own end, to being reduced to never haivng existed in the first place

The people who finished the timemachinethingy(not necesserly the people who started it), where, 100% selfless in the regard in that they worked for a world, a future, and a past, they know they could never experience themself.


They doomed potentially millions of not billions of people, but they also doomed themself, they knew it, and they accepted it.


The ancients on the other hand, where willing to doom others(the "new life" whatever that may be) to create benefit for themself
yes they "sacrificed half their numbers" but what, pray tell, was their intention later? to get those souls back, nothing would have been "sacrificed" in the end outside of unwilling, third party "new life"
The ancients acted solely for their own benefit(and as much as that extended to the "star" in their arrogance of being "the shephards of the star")completly intending to reap a reward from their work.
thats the big difference between the ironworks in the eighty umbral, and the Ancients, the end intend of "profit"

Yep I've made a similar point in other threads. The 8UC timeline was going to feel a personal consequence. They were creating an unknown future and they just had to hope it was better. And they knew it could have grave consequences not just for others but for themselves.

For the Ancients who wanted to bring back those lost, what was their personal consequence?

[KizuyaKatogami]

another big difference between the ancients and the ironworks was, the ironworks worked for a "past" they woudl never experience, a world they knew they would NOT profit off, they knew it couldpotentialy lead ot their own end, to being reduced to never haivng existed in the first place

The people who finished the timemachinethingy(not necesserly the people who started it), where, 100% selfless in the regard in that they worked for a world, a future, and a past, they know they could never experience themself.


They doomed potentially millions of not billions of people, but they also doomed themself, they knew it, and they accepted it.


The ancients on the other hand, where willing to doom others(the "new life" whatever that may be) to create benefit for themself
yes they "sacrificed half their numbers" but what, pray tell, was their intention later? to get those souls back, nothing would have been "sacrificed" in the end outside of unwilling, third party "new life"
The ancients acted solely for their own benefit(and as much as that extended to the "star" in their arrogance of being "the shephards of the star")completly intending to reap a reward from their work.
thats the big difference between the ironworks in the eighty umbral, and the Ancients, the end intend of "profit"

The new life could be plants and animals for all we know. Youre going to say the ancients were wrong for sacrificing them for actual people? Because in that case i guess the WoL is wrong for summoning primals in eden just to kill them and restore the empty. Or Yshtola is wrong for summoning nixies just to send them into the void and let them be killed etc.

[ZeraSkiratea]

The new life could be plants and animals for all we know. Youre going to say the ancients were wrong for sacrificing them for actual people? Because in that case i guess the WoL is wrong for summoning primals in eden just to kill them and restore the empty. Or Yshtola is wrong for summoning nixies just to send them into the void and let them be killed etc.

the problem with the "animal and plant" idea is that there where people within the Ancient society who disagreed with sacrifcing the "new life", so it had to at least have some degree of "status" i doubt even the most hardcore people in the ancient society would consider plants to be worthy to "hand over the star"(or whatever similiar phrase was used) to, it had to be either sentient, or potential sentient in the future fo rthe idea of people disagreeing with the sacrifice on that scale ot make sense

[Lauront]

The ancients acted solely for their own benefit(and as much as that extended to the "star" in their arrogance of being "the shephards of the star")completly intending to reap a reward from their work.

To be clear - are you claiming that the ancients who were sacrificed did so under the understanding that they'd later be returned? Because if you're claiming that, specifically, I am going to need a source for it.

The ancients acted solely for their own benefit(and as much as that extended to the "star" in their arrogance of being "the shephards of the star")completly intending to reap a reward from their work.

What's the "arrogance" here? Keep seeing this term just being thrown around, but you're going to have to explain to me how seeing themselves as responsible for the star's well-being is "arrogant", and relative to what it is "arrogant". I don't take this term particularly seriously, if I am honest. It's just one of those buzzwords this community likes thoughtlessly throwing around, but maybe you can persuade me otherwise.

Whether or not the Ironworks did so with their own benefit in mind, or that of another future timeline, they still arrogated to themselves the power to make a decision that could impact an entire timeline's existence. We can spin these things all day long, if you like.

[ZeraSkiratea]

SNIP

Arrogance in that they themself assumed that they alone have the authority to deem what "life" was worthy of existing on the Planet(venat is no exception here)
to the point that instead of trying to fix and imrpove beings that show problems, they rather just unmake it, write it down as a failure, and start over.(this Arrogance is something even we in our society irl have to some degree imo)
There is a BIG difference in seeing themself responsible for the well being, and functioning, of the Star, and Deciding they have the right to deem what is worthy to live, and that something is only worthy to live if its a "net positive" for the star. (I could draw paralels to humans and how that would look if we apply the whole "only worthy to live if its a net positive for society" to that, but that WOULD be disingenous as i personaly do not believe such a comparision could really work to a satisfying degree without abstraction upon abstraction.)
I admit tho, arogance is the wrong word, i just cant think of a better one as a non native speaker
Dont get me wrong, Venta is also Arogant in that regard, her actions certainly are questionable, even if they ultimatly lead to the best outcome we are currently aware of was possible(emet selch admiting the ancients would not have gotten that far as evidence here)



Also, i should have been clearer, i "seperate" in booth ironworks case, and the Ancients case, the "first generation" and "second generation and later" people
the People who lived trough the 8UC and started the time machine, are very similiar to the Ancients second gen who wanted more sacrifices to be made to return to status que.
There are some differences in intent, in scale, and in other things, but thats that.
In the end booth acted in a fashion they expected, hoped, or wanted to benefit them in some capacity, even if its just an alternate universe self



first gen Ancients(aka the "sacrificed people") are more akin to the Second gen Ironworks, aka They did what they did without the intent of a reward themself, for a brighter morrow even if they can not themself ever see it.
NOW we dont know enough about the whole ordeal, the Sacrificed people could potentialy have known about the possibility of a return(i doubt it but possibility exists) but that be ignored here.


If we want to abstract it IMMENSLY and break it down into paralels
one is the story of a Selfess sacrifice where no reward would ever reach them, turned into the want of personal benefit by those after.
And the other is a story of want of personal benefit, turned into selfless sacrifice where no reward could ever reach them by those after


i PERSONALLY and this is PERSONAL AS IT GOES, am of the opinion that the endresult, in booth cases far outweights their original intention by sheer scale.

More people(far more) worked on the Machine without the intend or possibility to profit from it, then that did intend or could profit from it
While a sizable chunk of ancients(roughly half) didnt want or expect(as far as we know) any profit from it personally, while a good other half EXPECTED some benefit from it and thats why they worked on it

[Lauront]

My question then would be, who else has this authority? There's no god above them. The star is happily sticking souls in creations that comply with its peculiar requirements. They're not simply using their power - which is innate and natural to them - for personal gain so much as what they see as the communal goal of improving their star by enriching the life that populates it. This is why I fail to understand where arrogance comes into this - if anything, it tilts in the opposite direction. I can't even say this is misguided, because they see both themselves and their creations as sharing a beneficial co-existence with the star, each serving their purpose in enriching it - they even saw their own return to it as part of its lifeblood. I see it as a rather beautiful and harmonious relationship. Moreover, we see from the Elpis sidequests that as a people they had a rich tapestry of personalities and viewpoints, and many of them would readily consider new viewpoints, and were not some hivemind.

I must admit, I genuinely struggle to see the issue with what they were doing. We, too, as a species shape other (lesser) species to service our ends, which can include very whimsical, trivial ones, and will even resort to genetic engineering for this. Now you can perhaps label this "arrogant" in the sense that we're not omniscient and that it comes with risks, but the specific argument of "what gives us that authority?" is meaningless to me. Absent a higher power or some natural moral order woven into the fabric of the universe, to which such decisions are properly reserved, at least. They could simply unmake the beings and revise the concept, or they could try other methods before doing so. They're still going to judge if it's a good fit for their star's ecosystem, or otherwise natural selection will very brutally make that decision on their behalf, which was their concern with the lykaones. And I am not even going to compare to the sundered or us as RL humans as you concede the same criticisms could be levelled - and I would say even harsher ones if we were to pick apart the sundered and put them under a microscope; not that I propose to do so.

As for those sacrificed to Zodiark (amounting to 75% of their remaining population), they did not know. It's clear from this source (JP version here... sources for other stuff here), because the Convocation amended its original plan to restore them. I am going to make a point here: the ancients caught in Zodiark were in a limbo, where they could not enjoy return to the star, which they cherished culturally. The ancients, as per sources in SHB (namely, Elidibus's short story), were also divided over this final stage, including the Convocation (FR SOS text confirms this), so much so that Elidibus emerged to mediate the debate. We don't know what the cause of the division was in broader ancient society (Venat's group is more concerned with the Plenty as an outcome but she did not share this with her people), but a very plausible reason here is how those sacrificed originally would feel about being returned - something Elidibus, as core of the primal, could speak to. To me it looks less like this act was purely selfish, and more that they had a complex situation of whether to leave their sacrificed brethren in this limbo. Even if I were to grant that some were being 'selfish' and simply wanted the return of their people, the existing division on this matter could have allowed for them to change course if they had been given the full truth of the risks Venat believed this carried.

Dont get me wrong, Venta is also Arogant in that regard, her actions certainly are questionable, even if they ultimatly lead to the best outcome we are currently aware of was possible(emet selch admiting the ancients would not have gotten that far as evidence here)

This really isn't going to cut it for me. He simply says "our methods" - as ancients or Ascians? Venat is an ancient at the end of the day. She's using ancient methods. So the "our" in this case vague, as is what he's specifically referring to. In the FR version, it is clearer he is referring to her gift as a matchmaker as the overall context behind those lines. Either way, I'm afraid I don't consider what he's saying there to equate to the claim that the ancients, given the full knowledge of what happened, had no possible way of resolving this on their own terms. It's too vague and he goes on to say his principles are invincible, so it's a weird meaning to extract from it, IMO, plus even if I granted it, he's not omniscient.