The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[SentioftheHoukai]

I honestly hate that as a FFXIV player it feels like I'm not allowed to like the Ancients as a people. What I saw in Elpis was not arrogant assholes who consider themselves above the lifeforms they created, but compassionate souls with various flaws who dote on and adore their creations.

So many people bring up how Hermes felt his fellows just create, use, abuse and throw away their creations as a simultaneous defense of the Sundered and demonization and condemnation of the Ancients, but frankly that's not something I ever saw.

However, I did see something else. I saw a rather mentally unstable young man fail to realize a creation was not suitable for the wider ecosystem and accomplished but death and destruction.

When he was confronted with the truth that he must put this creature down, he turned his internalized hate mistakenly upon his own people and seriously just letting them loose to cause carnage.

He encouraged its violent instincts and told the dying creature in its twilight hours to return and hunt his kind, for he believed what he perceived as their apathy justified such actions.

He criticized their admirable decision to return to the star as mindless, meaningless death and people also use this as condemnation of these beautiful people. But I have a different interpretation of their traditions.

Based on what I saw, they don't just decide to return to the star on a whim. They seemed to me to possess a societally influenced duty to fill the world they live in with productive and beautiful creations and concepts before feeling fulfilled and passing the torch a younger, brighter fellow with new and innovative ideas.

We have no evidence to suggest that the Ancients aged the way we understand the concept so do people expect them to have slaved for the good of all forever? Is it fair of us to condemn them for dying after having accomplished a great many things?

With Venat, people need to understand about EW is more important what they didn't show. We all here are of the opinion that she didn't tell them about Meteion, the cause of the Final Days or literally anything about what she learned and what she planned to do about it.

But even if she did, they didn't show that and if that's the case surely something would've changed or could've been devised against Meteion.

If Venat told them nothing, then well people condemnation about everything relating to Zodiark rings rather hollow doesn't it? The Zodiark plan was a desperate gambit devised by a people who feared losing everything and knew nothing about the sudden calamity they found themselves in.

I don't believe a scholarly population like Amaurot would resort to summoning a God of all things unless they were very, very desperate and out of options, and with Venat seemingly telling them nothing out of options is indeed what they were. For it seems they had no option and no choice to begin with, for as with so many things it was taken by her.

[SentioftheHoukai]

This is Part 2 to my post, couldn't fit it all.

I do believe that the Ancients could have come up with a counter to Meteion so long as they were made aware of all that Venat knew. At the time, Meteion had just left the planet she couldn't possibly have been the seemingly nigh-unstoppable monster we fought tens of thousands of years later.

I suppose the bottom line is that Endwalker just felt empty and devoid of meaning as a whole. It attempts to instill us with what it thinks is meaningful but like with all media its value it subjective and I feel for a lot it just didn't jive well with them.

For me in particular, I felt affronted by the patterns of thought and justice personas it attempted to force me to follow. The Ancients were demonized on multiple occasions in the plot and by the fandom and I despise dehumanization. I suppose I had faith that this is thinking common decency but I guess I underestimated how many people would willing to ignore or justify it when its not aimed at their favored demographic.

In regards to Venat, I suppose I never quite realized when the world warped the perspective around the "ends justify the means" philosophy because to my understanding that's always been a budding villain's motive and I can't really fathom how many people see Venat as a hero despite that.

For me, I rather distrusted her from the beginning. All the evidence we receive in ShB and before, then we learn of her "love" and yet her motives are that. I can't honestly reconcile the two.

Then there's the time travel plot point, which feels like a betrayal in and of itself. For all time travels faults, I personally felt that the whole point of time travel was to try and save people, but then they made it a closed loop unlike G'raha's old timeline and the entire time in Elpis's purpose seems to be serve no purpose but to build up Venat's positive character even more.

So I went in thinking maybe Elidibus was wrong and I could save the Ancients but all I accomplished in the World Unsundered was taking active part in their assured annihilation? Not enough was it that they are gone, but now Square says that it always meant to happen and of course I have to be a direct part of it now.

That's a step way too far, it goes beyond forced characterization at that point. Now my character is being forced to destroy her own people and of course she totally agrees with it? No, she wouldn't.

So, yeah.

Tldr; the Ancients are my true people, not the Sundered and Endwalker was one big nightmare for me that forced me to commit virtual genocide, be okay with it, offend my moral values, wank the other person responsible the whole ride, and generally commit numerous crimes on my person at the hands of Square Enix.

[Saraide]

This is Part 2 to my post, couldn't fit it all.

I do believe that the Ancients could have come up with a counter to Meteion so long as they were made aware of all that Venat knew. At the time, Meteion had just left the planet she couldn't possibly have been the seemingly nigh-unstoppable monster we fought tens of thousands of years later.

This is just straight up false and it makes your entire point that the WoL was complicit in the ancients' demise fall apart. By the time of us meeting the gang in elpis, the meteion sisters had already visited all their planets. They had already soaked up enough despair to corrupt the network completely. With their inability to manipulate dynamis they would have had a far worse chance than us at succeeding against the endsinger in her domain. Y'all need to pay more attention to what's going on.

Venat's dicision was a cruel one but faced with absolute annihilation even dark paths seem easy to take.

[jameseoakes]

This is just straight up false and it makes your entire point that the WoL was complicit in the ancients' demise fall apart. By the time of us meeting the gang in elpis, the meteion sisters had already visited all their planets. They had already soaked up enough despair to corrupt the network completely. With their inability to manipulate dynamis they would have had a far worse chance than us at succeeding against the endsinger in her domain. Y'all need to pay more attention to what's going on.

Venat's dicision was a cruel one but faced with absolute annihilation even dark paths seem easy to take.

My issue with this is that the the game fails to to set up that the ancients couldn't have dealt with Endsinger once they were able to turn there attention to the issue. Also if Venat complete scours all of there culture and legacy from existence which is vile act.

[redheadturk]

This is just straight up false and it makes your entire point that the WoL was complicit in the ancients' demise fall apart. By the time of us meeting the gang in elpis, the meteion sisters had already visited all their planets. They had already soaked up enough despair to corrupt the network completely. With their inability to manipulate dynamis they would have had a far worse chance than us at succeeding against the endsinger in her domain. Y'all need to pay more attention to what's going on.

Venat's dicision was a cruel one but faced with absolute annihilation even dark paths seem easy to take.

Yeah no. The issue with your take is Venat knew, she had the relevant information that could have allowed her people to combat Meteion's little tantrum. She refused to share it and instead unilaterally made the decision that "Mommy knows best" instead of sharing it with them so they could come up with a solution on their own. And I have full faith they *could* have.

[Lauront]

This is just straight up false and it makes your entire point that the WoL was complicit in the ancients' demise fall apart. By the time of us meeting the gang in elpis, the meteion sisters had already visited all their planets. They had already soaked up enough despair to corrupt the network completely.

For 12k years she could not put a scratch on a sundered Zodiark... 8 sundered and the scions defeat her... she doesn't seem to have been all she was cracked up to be, tbh.

[Larirawiel]

For 12k years she could not put a scratch on a sundered Zodiark... 8 sundered and the scions defeat her... she doesn't seem to have been all she was cracked up to be, tbh.

Yes. But Zodiark was a primal. He needed an external aether source to exist. So the ancients would have to sacrifice living beeings permanently to feed him. And since he tempered the Convocation of 14, they would not have any problems to sacrifice other life.

Cheers

[Absimiliard]

Yes. But Zodiark was a primal. He needed an external aether source to exist. So the ancients would have to sacrifice living beeings permanently to feed him. And since he tempered the Convocation of 14, they would not have any problems to sacrifice other life.

Cheers

Zodiark and Hydaelyn adhere to a different set of rules than modern primals. Zodiark, with the wealth of Ancient souls within him, had a virtually infinite wellspring of aether from which to draw. Hydaelyn, though functionally similar, had far fewer souls and thus drained all of them to non-existence. She continued to exist even without the extra souls/aether right up until she depleted her own soul in battle with the WoL and Scions.

It has something to do with sustainability. Zodiark as a shield against the Endsinger's song will not last forever. It is a mitigation and does not solve the problem from the ground. And the ancients would have spend fresh life to Zodiark permanently. Until all life on Aetheris is spent. Zodiark has not the ability to create new life without a sacrifice.

It is like the ozone hole. It is better, that the ozone can restore instead of using sunblockers permanently. The second method is a mitigation and not a solution. The ancients chose the second method.

The game has established that Zodiark did not require any outside assistance or aether to maintain his protection of Etheirys. Furthermore, Zodiark utilized creation magick several times throughout his fight with the WoL with absolutely no consequences or need for an external aether supply. What Zodiark needed the second set of sacrifices for was to create on a global scale (and restore the world's ability to sustain life, which was lost because of the Final Days) without having to completely deplete the Ancient souls within him. One of his purposes was to protect those souls until they could be resurrected, and using them up would've been anything but. The third set of sacrifices were to come from the descendants of the new life Zodiark seeded, that the Ancients might live again without harm coming to Etheirys or more sapient life needing to end.

[Saraide]

For 12k years she could not put a scratch on a sundered Zodiark... 8 sundered and the scions defeat her... she doesn't seem to have been all she was cracked up to be, tbh.

We had the ability to influence dynamis, something the ancients were literally incapable of. Their vaste amounts of aether would not have helped them in the vortex of pure dynamis. Meteion is by design exceptionally slippery, you'll only manage to defeat the endsinger if you manage to break the despair that infests the sister network. Meteion had no reason to hurry, she could instigate mankind's demise as slow as she needed to while hiding in her stronghold. Given more time her ever increasing song of oblivion would have broken through zodiark's shroud.

Yeah no. The issue with your take is Venat knew, she had the relevant information that could have allowed her people to combat Meteion's little tantrum. She refused to share it and instead unilaterally made the decision that "Mommy knows best" instead of sharing it with them so they could come up with a solution on their own. And I have full faith they *could* have.

My issue with this is that the the game fails to to set up that the ancients couldn't have dealt with Endsinger once they were able to turn there attention to the issue. Also if Venat complete scours all of there culture and legacy from existence which is vile act.

I think the game does set that up. Given the knowledge there is no reason to assume hermes wouldnt just side with meteion again and with the loyalty of the best mind they have on dynamis most likely against them while also not being able to directly influence it, it would have spelled disaster. Venat only had one shot, she had to decide which one to pursue then and there. It absolutely was a vile act, she recognizes that. She did it out of desperation to end the spiraling despair that took hold of the ancients' society.

[gotaname1]

snip

Weren't the ancients capable of time manipulation? They would have had vast amounts of time figuring something out using time chambers outside of the fact that twitter had litterally only just left the planet. But I suppose the writers could not make the story 'good' if the characters in it were capable of logic xD