The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[Lauront]

There seems to be a gap in the storytelling. I got the impression that Venat did work with the Council of 14 and did her best to convince them that summoning a blood god was probably not the smartest course of action, but she's fighting against the egos and naive worldviews of people like Hermes and Emet-Selch, who also think they know best.

I do find it rather ironic that you're referring to a gap in storytelling, when I think this relates more to a gap in comprehension. Her entire plan requires Zodiark. Her faction was reliant on keeping him around to shield the star. She emphatically says she won't be able to lean directly on the Convocation in this case, and there is zero indication she told them the truth of the matter, i.e. about a goth bird waifu created by Hermes absorbing vast quantities of planetary despair and vomiting it back onto the universe. Not even her own creation, the Watcher, is privy to the ultimate cause.

Plan 1A was summon a god so powerful it would stop Meteion, even if it cost them half their souls. Plan 1B was to have a bunch of children, and then sacrifice them, to bring back the first batch of lost souls.

Sorry but what are you even talking about at this point? Can you provide any sources to back this up? Zodiark was intended to correct a weakening in the aetherial currents. They did not know the true cause of the apocalypse, because Venat never told them. Point 1B may as well be headcanon - see here.

Were there likely some outside of the box solutions that the Council should have explored? Yes. But that would entail them believing crazy old Venat's story: that a time traveler from the future came and told them that their world was going to be destroyed by a non-aetherial based creation.

Did she even try convince them? Make use of the Echo? Approach Hyth and Emet to explain what had happened to them? Etc. No, she basically rules this approach out because she wouldn't want to alienate Hermes according to her reasoning. But she had plenty of tools at her disposal. She was a highly revered member of her society, even if they saw her as eccentric - see here:

Emet-Selch: Then again, even with you slowing her down, there is no denying that Venat is an accomplished researcher. Her wealth of wisdom and experience is unmatched, and her achievements in creation magicks─in any field, frankly─are nothing short of extraordinary.
Emet-Selch: Though the singular brilliance which sets her apart can make her motives somewhat impenetrable at times...
Emet-Selch: As her student and successor puts it, she is a force of nature, at once so close...and at the same time, so very distant.

Yes. But Zodiark was a primal. He needed an external aether source to exist. So the ancients would have to sacrifice living beeings permanently to feed him. And since he tempered the Convocation of 14, they would not have any problems to sacrifice other life.

Cheers

Not sure what this has to do with anything? Hydaelyn's entire plan relies on him. She too is a primal. There is nothing indicating either drain the star of aether like regular primals do. If you want to provide actual sources for this, including that their tempering would actually sway them to sacrifices (when the FR version indicates the Convocation was divided on this in Elidibus's SoS dialogue), I'll be happy to entertain this, but I am not in the habit of just accepting headcanon as fact.

We had the ability to influence dynamis, something the ancients were literally incapable of. Their vaste amounts of aether would not have helped them in the vortex of pure dynamis. Meteion is by design exceptionally slippery, you'll only manage to defeat the endsinger if you manage to break the despair that infests the sister network. Meteion had no reason to hurry, she could instigate mankind's demise as slow as she needed to while hiding in her stronghold.

They were capable of creating workarounds, like entelechies. At a bare minimum, selective sundering of their kind could create life forms capable of influencing this, without sundering their entire star and people. Like I said, a small quantity of sundered sufficed. And this is not considering what other manner of solutions they could devise over 12k years, with knowledge of the actual cause behind this. Sorry if I don't find this point particularly compelling.

Given more time her ever increasing song of oblivion would have broken through zodiark's shroud..

12k years later and the shield was still holding. Plenty of time for the ancients to devise workarounds and solutions.

[Larirawiel]

Not sure what this has to do with anything? Hydaelyn's entire plan relies on him.

It has something to do with sustainability. Zodiark as a shield against the Endsinger's song will not last forever. It is a mitigation and does not solve the problem from the ground. And the ancients would have spend fresh life to Zodiark permanently. Until all life on Aetheris is spent. Zodiark has not the ability to create new life without a sacrifice.

It is like the ozone hole. It is better, that the ozone can restore instead of using sunblockers permanently. The second method is a mitigation and not a solution. The ancients chose the second method.





Cheers

[redheadturk]

I will be forever convinced that another way could have been found if they had had the relevant information on hand. Screw Venat's "one shot". She had every opportunity to take Emet and Hythlodaeus to one side and divulge said information to them and spare both of them twelve thousand years of suffering. Would it have erased our existence? Yes. Does my WoL think it would have been worth it? Again, hells yes.

[Theodric]

A Sundered Zodiark lasted for twelve thousand years and that's without needing to draw upon any of the Ancient souls dwelling inside of him. We can only imagine what an Unsundered Zodiark would have been capable of achieving.

Criticising the Ancients for 'mitigation' is also strange to me. They were unaware of Meteion's existence because Venat refused to inform them of the situation. Had she spoken up - especially before the Final Days hit - then there would be a great many more Ancients who could have banded together in an effort to find an alternative solution.

[Lauront]

It has something to do with sustainability. Zodiark as a shield against the Endsinger's song will not last forever. It is a mitigation and does not solve the problem from the ground. And the ancients would have spend fresh life to Zodiark permanently. Until all life on Aetheris is spent. Zodiark has not the ability to create new life without a sacrifice.

It is like the ozone hole. It is better, that the ozone can restore instead of using sunblockers permanently. The second method is a mitigation and not a solution. The ancients chose the second method.

Well sure, give them a full account of what's happening, and maybe they would, but I still would like evidence on all this if we're going to take it as established fact. We know regular primals do drain aether, but Zodiark and Hydaelyn were both constructed using ancient creation magicks, and we already know of one flaw the Ascians inserted into the beast tribe summoning methods, i.e. the desire in the summoners to spread their zeal through tempering. It is not at all clear to me that either Zodiark or Hydaelyn drain aether in this manner, particularly since they are/were hooked up to the very centre of the star. But given that Zodiark, even bound on the moon, did not require surplus sacrifices to continue working as before, I am going to need evidence of this that is much stronger than "regular primals do".

[EgilTheStressedMage]

Of course they did, but not at the expense of the characters my WoL cares about.

[redheadturk]

Of course they did, but not at the expense of the characters my WoL cares about.

My WoL would gladly have sacrificed his existence to save the Ancients, and it is likely the Scions existed whole on the Unsundered world, and even more likely he knew them as his unsundered self in said unsundered world.

[EgilTheStressedMage]

My WoL would gladly have sacrificed his existence to save the Ancients, and it is likely the Scions existed whole on the Unsundered world, and even more likely he knew them as his unsundered self in said unsundered world.

Mine wouldn’t stake all that on a chance. That’s not taking into account the rest of the cast he’s come to love. Such a thing would only be acceptable if there was absolutely no other way.

[TaleraRistain]

My WoL would gladly have sacrificed his existence to save the Ancients, and it is likely the Scions existed whole on the Unsundered world, and even more likely he knew them as his unsundered self in said unsundered world.

If we're talking out WoLs, my WoL wouldn't sacrifice half the population for any reason.

Emet confronts us about that in ShB and asks would the Sundered do the same. And he framed it as a negative and that they wouldn't because they were selfish.

My WoL and I feel the Scions as well would absolutely refuse that path. They would give up their own lives for others, but not sacrifice others by summoning a god to devour their essence.

The Ancients weren't evil but by their nature of being long lived and with the ease of creation magic able to solve their problems, they may have respected life but they didn't truly value it and hold onto it tooth and nail no matter what. They didn't have a fire to live and survive burning in their souls. And that's absolute will to survive is what was needed most against Endsinger's song of oblivion.

[Skyborne]

Six months later and their treatment still the most bizarre and tonedeaf things in the game to me. Total turnoff.

Imagine if in StB, we had some weird cutscene where Zenos/Yotsuyu talk down some squealing Bitter Domans in their city as it's being razed, and the former two are covered in black blood and treated as if they were the victims simply wanting to see the Domans 'grow and flourish' by 'standing up for themselves' and 'being strong'. Before Zenos looks sad and slices the screen in half as Revolutions blares, of course.

It's stranger still, since no other material paints them this way, and I was actually interested enough to do the Elpis sidequests. Even the totally-not-Yoshida bard compliments them on their resolve to save their planet when you unlock Spinny Platform EX.

I dunno if I'm like.... Out here playing a different game or what, but I definitely didn't see any takeaway that the Ancients deserved to be destroyed, and we as the wol certainly weren't responsible for their ultimate destruction.

You'd be surprised how many people did, and it's why I don't really go to say, the Lore forum lest I start dribbling black pitch from my eye sockets. Well, that and being in a limbo where 90% of the things I liked or thought added spice to the game world have been done away with.

Sympathize with your feels, OP.