The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[EgilTheStressedMage]

Of course they did, but not at the expense of the characters my WoL cares about.

[Avidria]

Where did this come from? They were planning to sacrifice the new (notably mostly non-sapient) life Zodiark seeded the world with, not their own children.

Where does it say explicitly that life was mostly non sapient? And how much is left out of that "mostly"?

[Larirawiel]

Zodiark and Hydaelyn adhere to a different set of rules than modern primals. Zodiark, with the wealth of Ancient souls within him, had a virtually infinite wellspring of aether from which to draw.

Maybe Zodiark and Hydaelyn have a different set of rules. But i cannot see, that it is so very different to other primals. And the souls of the ancients are not an almost infinite source of aether. Elidibus's energy was completely spent when he opened the gate to Elpis.

Hydaelyn, though functionally similar, had far fewer souls and thus drained all of them to non-existence. She continued to exist even without the extra souls/aether right up until she depleted her own soul in battle with the WoL and Scions.

Ohhh, i do not believe, that the ... twelve souls, who sacrified themself to summon Hydaelyn do not exist.

The game has established that Zodiark does not require any outside assistance or aether to maintain his protection of Etheirys. Furthermore, Zodiark utilizes creation magick several times throughout his fight with the WoL with absolutely no consequences or need for an external aether supply. What Zodiark needed the second set of sacrifices for was to create on a global scale without having to completely deplete the Ancient souls within him. One of his purposes was to protect those souls until they could be resurrected, and using them up would've been anything but.

The game does not establish, that Zodiark does not need an external aether source. But as Emet-Selch said, that he is a primal then there is no reason to think, that this primal is very different to other primals. And other primals need external aether to restore themself. You see it in the Bismarck scenes when he fights against the garlean battleship. Bismarck eats some green crystals.

But i see, the game lets many things open. :/

Cheers

[SentioftheHoukai]

Utopias never hold up under scrutiny. This is an extremely well explored concept. Holding everyone in a single moment in time is functionally not different from oblivion and also, as we've learned from alexander, takes insane amounts of aether to sustain. Which is the same problem zodiark has, it's not sustainable to just shield the planet from the song of oblivion because it will increase in strength, while zodiark's shroud does not.

While I'm glad you brought up such an original concept, the Elpis arc takes extra special care to demonstrate just how little the Ancient's society truly resembles utopia. While my purpose in posting this thread is for my own benefit, others have pointed out and provided ample evidence as to how and why Venat did not need to destroy her people's entire way of life (and indeed, their very bodies, souls and culture) to solve the dilemma of Meteion and the Final Days. Though I don't doubt that this is the outcome the WoL would have preferred, seeing as how their loved ones exist in a timeline that ultimately persists at the expense of everything that came before. As for me, my sole unshakeable belief is that their loss is a tragedy. One I've yet to get over. Time will tell if I'll be strong enough to "Forge Ahead", though by Venat's philosophy if I fail to overcome the depression Endwalker's given me I deserve to die and have my soul expunged.

[redheadturk]

Of course they did, but not at the expense of the characters my WoL cares about.

My WoL would gladly have sacrificed his existence to save the Ancients, and it is likely the Scions existed whole on the Unsundered world, and even more likely he knew them as his unsundered self in said unsundered world.

[OhNooo]

These are pretty much my sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, the end result is that I no longer care to invest in the story going forward. Every character I actually liked is dead and the way they ended the 10 year arc is beyond disappointing for me. Yes, it's their story and they ended things the way they wanted, but frankly it felt like an insult to my intelligence. Any future stories they have planned that would involve a "conflict of interest" is not something I trust them to resolve in a manner that will satisfy me. I was so vehemently against even my own character's actions throughout most of the msq...I've come to realize that I don't want to roleplay in this type of game. I'm better off in a game where my choices matter. So I no longer intend to follow the story in ffxiv.

But yeah, you're definitely not alone in what you're feeling. It does help to get all of your frustrations out and know that you're not going crazy, especially in the midst of so many positive reviews.

[SentioftheHoukai]

These are pretty much my sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, the end result is that I no longer care to invest in the story going forward. Every character I actually liked is dead and the way they ended the 10 year arc is beyond disappointing for me. Yes, it's their story and they ended things the way they wanted, but frankly it felt like an insult to my intelligence. Any future stories they have planned that would involve a "conflict of interest" is not something I trust them to resolve in a manner that will satisfy me. I was so vehemently against even my own character's actions throughout most of the msq...I've come to realize that I don't want to roleplay in this type of game. I'm better off in a game where my choices matter. So I no longer intend to follow the story in ffxiv.

But yeah, you're definitely not alone in what you're feeling. It does help to get all of your frustrations out and know that you're not going crazy, especially in the midst of so many positive reviews.

I get that. I mean putting aside all the constant gaslighting and toxic positivity trying to shame you, any sane person would wonder if they are the ones that are wrong for not liking even individual aspects of a story when all you ever see is constant praise. I suppose I'm fortunate that I found y'all. I don't know that I'd survive in here without a few allies, it's likely all that's keeping me here.

[ZeraSkiratea]

Zodiark and Hydaelyn adhere to a different set of rules than modern primals. Zodiark, with the wealth of Ancient souls within him, had a virtually infinite wellspring of aether from which to draw. Hydaelyn, though functionally similar, had far fewer souls and thus drained all of them to non-existence. She continued to exist even without the extra souls/aether right up until she depleted her own soul in battle with the WoL and Scions.

while that IS true, iirc it is said, or at least implied that booth did Syphon some aether from the Aetherical sea (altough unwillingly iirc in Hydaelyns case and Zodiark was.. ya know, not really in a position do it conciousl yeither) which formed the Mother(and father) crystal.
Now, given Hydaelin never used it, there are 4 possible reassons as to why she never used it.
She either A) couldnt, as it was maybe "incompatible aether" for whatever unexplained reasson,

or B)She knew she couldnt use it as it was required for us to travel to ultima thule
or C)She didnt yet HAVE to use it to sustain herself(as in, she still had a bit of aether over till she would have started to burn herself making the final test no longer fair)
or D)She didnt want to use it and potentialy permamently drain Etheris of some part of Aether


now, A and B are the most likely

[ZeraSkiratea]

We know they can make things that can interact with dynamis and that they have at least 12000 years to work on the problem, it seems very easy to deal with her as she was a complete pushover as we defeated her with almost no effort or cost.

I wouldnt call what we did "with no effort or cost", the fight, in gameplay, was rather simple, i admit but Gameplay=/=lore or te actual difficulty in universe

it required vast ammounts of Aether, a spaceship, and the tracking spell of Venat to even reach her, she effortlessly managed to drain the atmosphere from the entire region(at least thats what i think it was) requiring someone to litteraly turn themself into it by sheer willpower(dyanmis) and so forth.


HECK, even the very final battle was only won because of Dynamis powering us up with the hopes and prayers of the scions, and in turn, basically the entire Star.


Also, let get this straight, Endsinger, a being comprised of hundreds if not THOUSANDS of Meteis (whats the plural again?), a being specificaly designed to interact with dynamis, craeted by one of the greatest minds of the Ancients, and their foremost researcher in dynamis itself, lost to 8 People(or 1 depending on how we interpret the final fight)


Its not just about laerning to manipulate dynamis(or well creating a being to do it) its also about being able to overcome despair on your own, to turn it into strength.
The Ancients proved they are incapable of doing that,(which was the straw that caused venat to entrust the world unto tomorow, unto us) they went ahead and tried to return to a world before despair, instead of looking forward and getting stronger from it.
The beings they would create would need to be aethericaly weak enough to engage with dynamis, and overcome despair to strenghten their resolve before facing meteion.

How, tell me, does a species who is incapable of engaging with it themself, and who proved to be incapable of drawing strength from despair and overcoming it themself. Create a being(or multiple) that can do booth, the first part? sure, Meteion exists, they have a starting point, the second part, THATS what i doubt they would be able to acomplish.... or if they could it would require them to subject the beings to some sort of torture so they can experience despair, and overcome it, just to make them fight for them. And that didnt yet solve the problem of even GETTING to ultima thule



Now Venats response IS technicaly that "proposed idea", She sunderd everything, creating beings aethericaly weak enough to engage with Dynamis, and also caused them countless lifetimes worth of suffering and despair, of Tragedy and loos, just so we could fight, and this is twisted.

HOWEVER the tragedys themself where always of our own making(ignoring the ascian machinations, which she did try to help against), and it wasnt for the ancients sake, but for our own sake in the end.
Well anyway

[EgilTheStressedMage]

My WoL would gladly have sacrificed his existence to save the Ancients, and it is likely the Scions existed whole on the Unsundered world, and even more likely he knew them as his unsundered self in said unsundered world.

Mine wouldn’t stake all that on a chance. That’s not taking into account the rest of the cast he’s come to love. Such a thing would only be acceptable if there was absolutely no other way.