The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[jameseoakes]

We had the ability to influence dynamis, something the ancients were literally incapable of. Their vaste amounts of aether would not have helped them in the vortex of pure dynamis. Meteion is by design exceptionally slippery, you'll only manage to defeat the endsinger if you manage to break the despair that infests the sister network. Meteion had no reason to hurry, she could instigate mankind's demise as slow as she needed to while hiding in her stronghold. Given more time her ever increasing song of oblivion would have broken through zodiark's shroud.

We know they can make things that can interact with dynamis and that they have at least 12000 years to work on the problem, it seems very easy to deal with her as she was a complete pushover as we defeated her with almost no effort or cost.

[Silvaire_Valtain]

This is just straight up false and it makes your entire point that the WoL was complicit in the ancients' demise fall apart. By the time of us meeting the gang in elpis, the meteion sisters had already visited all their planets. They had already soaked up enough despair to corrupt the network completely. With their inability to manipulate dynamis they would have had a far worse chance than us at succeeding against the endsinger in her domain. Y'all need to pay more attention to what's going on.

Venat's dicision was a cruel one but faced with absolute annihilation even dark paths seem easy to take.

The Ancients could create Entelechies, like Meteion. So they could create an Entelechy to go fight Meteion.

Y'all need to think about things and not just accept what you are told.

[Elesh]

The Ancients could create Entelechies, like Meteion. So they could create an Entelechy to go fight Meteion.

Y'all need to think about things and not just accept what you are told.

In theory they could, but what makes you think you know more about their capabilities than Emet Selch?

Emet Selch himself said '(the WoL) got humanity farther than (the ancients) could have' - perhaps he had a better gauge of their limitations than we do, being among their best and brightest?

[Avidria]

The Ancients could create Entelechies, like Meteion. So they could create an Entelechy to go fight Meteion.

Y'all need to think about things and not just accept what you are told.

They could have, but how long would it take? Would they have enough time? Would the one person to ever attempt it, let alone succeed (arguably considering the outcome), cooperate with them?

I mean there are definitely holes in the story and the timeline, but that pretty much just means we have no idea how much better or worse it would have been for anyone if Venat did tell everyone and give them a chance to come to agreement on some solution other than literally ripping their civilization apart.

And, I mean. There is the fun fact that our characters and their stories literally couldn't exist if the sundering didn't happen. So. SE kinda backed themselves into a corner, there.

[AnEmissary]

Then I would truly prefer that the story had ended there, or completely changed in its focus, than continued on as this horrifying nightmare of a broken world. It's okay for things to end, if it means remaining true to the themes and prior material of the story. It would have done it credit, in my opinion, for a game to acknowledge that. It could have been followed on by an FFXIV 2: After Story sort of thing if the devs had wanted: a new and more modern MMO without the limitations with which this one is stuck, a technical metaphor for the expanded possibilities available in a whole world.

But if not, that's fine too. This just feels like an absolute betrayal of principles and themes that have been around since the very beginning.

'To give up on those one might conceivably save is not wisdom--it is indolence.' And I believe with my whole heart that there was a way for the Ancients to be saved, and in not doing so the story has abandoned the idea to which it has clung so tightly, even in this very expansion.

(Post has been edited to correct some typographical errors.)

[Fiel_Tana]

They could have, but how long would it take? Would they have enough time? Would the one person to ever attempt it, let alone succeed (arguably considering the outcome), cooperate with them?

Well, a sundered Zodiark bought 12,000 years before he was killed, so they'd have had a LONG time.

Who is this one person you mention? There'd be no reason they'd only send one. Also Dynamis wasn't unheard of, just understudied but again, they'd have plenty of time (and now incentive) to do so.

[DPZ2]

The Ancients could create Entelechies, like Meteion. So they could create an Entelechy to go fight Meteion.

Y'all need to think about things and not just accept what you are told.

ONE Ancient could create entelechies: Hermes. His research wasn't shared. He also was of the opinion that Meteion was something he wished to protect. He did actually live through the Final Days, you know, at no point offering to resolve the problem.

[Lihtleita]

ONE Ancient could create entelechies: Hermes.

what about the dude who made the flower

[Lauront]

ONE Ancient could create entelechies: Hermes. His research wasn't shared. He also was of the opinion that Meteion was something he wished to protect. He did actually live through the Final Days, you know, at no point offering to resolve the problem.

He was admitted to the Convocation and became Fandaniel. What are you even talking about? The problem was they did not know the origin of the crisis (again, it was not shared with them by Venat), so they focused on solutions based on inferred patterns of weakness in the celestial currents. Also, the Elpis flowers were not his creation. They had the capability to create these things, and there is little reason to believe this research could not be picked up, if they knew this was the avenue of research they had to pursue. 12k+ years is an awful long time frame within which to come up with a solution.

I'm okay with a broken time loop and WoL's ceasing to exist as long as it leads to a better end for the Ancients. I have minimal interest or care in the Sundered characters--the individual who said above that they found the Ancients cold and distant? That's exactly how I feel about the Scions, and have for years.

Same here.

[DPZ2]

[B]Then there's the time travel plot point, which feels like a betrayal in and of itself. For all time travels faults, I personally felt that the whole point of time travel was to try and save people, but then they made it a closed loop unlike G'raha's old timeline and the entire time in Elpis's purpose seems to be serve no purpose but to build up Venat's positive character even more.

So I went in thinking maybe Elidibus was wrong and I could save the Ancients but all I accomplished in the World Unsundered was taking active part in their assured annihilation? Not enough was it that they are gone, but now Square says that it always meant to happen and of course I have to be a direct part of it now.

That's a step way too far, it goes beyond forced characterization at that point. Now my character is being forced to destroy her own people and of course she totally agrees with it? No, she wouldn't.

So, yeah.

Tldr; the Ancients are my true people, not the Sundered and Endwalker was one big nightmare for me that forced me to commit virtual genocide, be okay with it, offend my moral values, wank the other person responsible the whole ride, and generally commit numerous crimes on my person at the hands of Square Enix.

The time travel conundrum ... it is necessarily a closed loop, providing insight into the "how and why" of the Final Days we were exposed to in Shadowbringers. We are in Elpis for two reasons ... discovery and consequence. Nobody knew about Meteion except their Creator, and we know the soon-to-be Fandaniel did not register them, nor were they willing to allow harm come to them. Without us as catalyst, there would have been nobody except Hermes aware of what happened. Face it, Hermes was a bad meta-Programmer.

If we were not there, there would have been no story of us in the future. One cannot fight that which one cannot see or understand. Death of your "True People" was inevitable, in much the same way as all of the other worlds. I suspect that Venat would have still Sundered the world, without understanding or planning for the Future She Does Not Know, simply because the sacrifice of living beings was not sustainable in the long run.

The Warrior of Light does not commit virtual genocide, regardless of who your True People are. Meteion does that quite nicely by themselves.

You may very well agree that the Rejoining is necessary, at the expense of everything and everyone you've ever known, including yourself. Such self-loathing is beyond my comprehension.