What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KariTheFox]

The life experiences the writing team had was probably "living in and being raised in a country that is heavily influenced by Buddhist beliefs" - which among other things, teach that suffering is an inevitable part of life. So the only sense that suffering is "good" is the fact that life is good. Suffering is a part of life, and allows us to feel compassion, so in that sense it's good. (Though really it's not accurate to describe suffering as good or bad in this framework, it simply is.)

I think a lot of western audience get tripped up because they're looking at the concept of suffering through a Western-Christian lens, where it is a punishment placed on mankind for its sins (hence all the framing about Venat "punishing" the ancients with death and suffering) when really, it's just that suffering is a part of our lives, and turning away from or denying it only makes it fester.

[KariTheFox]

I'm sure concocting elaborate conspiracy theories about last minute rewrites must be fun, but I think a simpler explanation is that a story was written with a moral framework and belief system you don't agree with.

[jameseoakes]

The life experiences the writing team had was probably "living in and being raised in a country that is heavily influenced by Buddhist beliefs" - which among other things, teach that suffering is an inevitable part of life. So the only sense that suffering is "good" is the fact that life is good. Suffering is a part of life, and allows us to feel compassion, so in that sense it's good. (Though really it's not accurate to describe suffering as good or bad in this framework, it simply is.)

I think a lot of western audience get tripped up because they're looking at the concept of suffering through a Western-Christian lens, where it is a punishment placed on mankind for its sins (hence all the framing about Venat "punishing" the ancients with death and suffering) when really, it's just that suffering is a part of our lives, and turning away from or denying it only makes it fester.

The problem with this is that the Venat directally inflicts this suffering on people and often some pretty extreme a vile things. So she does punish the people of Etheris for not meeting her standards, as far as we can see the Anicents lived rich full lives so there doesn't seem to have been a sudden need to make a world of disease, malnutrition and children freeze to death in the snow, there seems to be little effort in showing how such suffering made peoples lives better but we see a lot of how the suffering Venat inflicted broke people.

[Theodric]

I'm sure concocting elaborate conspiracy theories about last minute rewrites must be fun, but I think a simpler explanation is that a story was written with a moral framework and belief system you don't agree with.

I'm not sure why you keep brushing it off as a 'conspiracy theory' when multiple people have linked you the interview where it has been stated outright by the developers themselves that an expansion was cut out entirely and the story was rewritten right up until the last minute. Granted, you might have conveniently missed it each and every time it happened but hopefully you'll see it this time around!

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._with_yoshida/

Interviewer: When did you decide to bring the story so far to a conclusion?

Ishikawa: After Shadowbringers released, around the end of 2019, Image Studio [note: the CGI studio within Square Enix that produces the high-quality cinematics in various SE game] had to be provided with storyboards. In autumn and winter of that year, we went on a residential together in order to decide the main points of the story for the next expansion. But the problem was… we’re used to the writing process, and so feeling that “here and here are the remaining parts of the story we have to talk about, so let’s accept the rest”, the residential went very smoothly. I was in charge of filling in the details of the story elements, but when I looked at the structure of the content again, I thought “this might be okay for just another expansion, but if this is labelled the ‘finale’ is it really okay?” So I reworked the story from the plot outline. The end result was ready 2 days before the deadline.

[KariTheFox]

So I reworked the story from the plot outline. The end result was ready 2 days before the deadline.[/I]

Do... do you think the "deadline" here is referring to Endwalker's release date, and not an internal preproduction deadline around the end of 2019-2020 like the quote was talking about?

[Theodric]

Do... do you think the "deadline" here is referring to Endwalker's release date, and not an internal preproduction deadline around the end of 2019-2020 like the quote was talking about?

There were multiple delays and the official release date was pushed back at least twice. Once right before it was due to go live so that 'additional tweaks' could be made. In a separate interview Yoshi-P admitted to spending a month getting Hydaelyn's face 'just right' so there's certainly plenty of things at play that have been raised throughout the existence of this thread and others. All sourced, for your convenience.

Add into that the numerous retcons relating to large swathes of the game's established plot threads so far and it really does seem more likely than not that the usual quality control and consistency was sacrificed on many fronts. Again, for reasons frequently outlined across the many threads related to the subject of Venat.

[YukikoKurosawa]

I thought “this might be okay for just another expansion, but if this is labelled the ‘finale’ is it really okay?” So I reworked the story from the plot outline. The end result was ready 2 days before the deadline.[/I]

Really makes me wonder just what in the hell they had written for their "just another expansion" version of the story.

[KariTheFox]

There were multiple delays and the official release date was pushed back at least twice. Once right before it was due to go live so that 'additional tweaks' could be made. In a separate interview Yoshi-P admitted to spending a month getting Hydaelyn's face 'just right' so there's certainly plenty of things at play that have been raised throughout the existence of this thread and others. All sourced, for your convenience.

Add into that the numerous retcons relating to large swathes of the game's established plot threads so far and it really does seem more likely than not that the usual quality control and consistency was sacrificed on many fronts. Again, for reasons frequently outlined across the many threads related to the subject of Venat.

Just so I'm understanding you, are you or are you not saying that Ishikawa submitted her plot outline two days before a "deadline" that had anything to do with Endwalker's release date.

That when she says "I submitted my plot outline two days before the deadline" she was not referring to standard, pre-production practices, but that somehow Endwalker was in development for two years without a plot outline being submitted?

[Vyrerus]

The life experiences the writing team had was probably "living in and being raised in a country that is heavily influenced by Buddhist beliefs" - which among other things, teach that suffering is an inevitable part of life. So the only sense that suffering is "good" is the fact that life is good. Suffering is a part of life, and allows us to feel compassion, so in that sense it's good. (Though really it's not accurate to describe suffering as good or bad in this framework, it simply is.)

I think a lot of western audience get tripped up because they're looking at the concept of suffering through a Western-Christian lens, where it is a punishment placed on mankind for its sins (hence all the framing about Venat "punishing" the ancients with death and suffering) when really, it's just that suffering is a part of our lives, and turning away from or denying it only makes it fester.

Kinda hard to umbrella it all under Buddhist influence when Buddhism discards the notion of the soul. It also doesn't hold that life is good or bad, just that it is temporary, and that temporary things are something to free one's self from.

Like sure, there's some Buddhist elements, but the events of the story are largely free from it, mainly due to all of the violence. There's also Zenos who is rather like the antithesis to Buddhism, thrusting simple desire so powerfully in front of despair as to be half of the force that beats it, serving as the vehicle from which it cannot escape.

[anhaato]

I'm sure concocting elaborate conspiracy theories about last minute rewrites must be fun, but I think a simpler explanation is that a story was written with a moral framework and belief system you don't agree with.

None of the stuff you said had anything to do with Venat inflicting suffering, that was not present before, onto billions. Regardless of religion, would that not be seen as punishment? You said “suffering simply is” but that doesn’t apply here because before her it… wasn’t. But sure, we can talk about moral frameworks if you like. What’s the moral framework of hiding the truth from your fellow people, forcing your beliefs on them in the form of omicide except for three you spared because you need them to destroy seven more worlds, and toying with every iteration of the soul of your successor and their friends until the right one comes along, and doing this all because your world was full of people who were too good at making their own lives better, and because someone from the future told you to do it? What religion is that?