Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

[cjbeagle]

Instead of debating the substance of everything else I said, you attempt to label me as some hypocrite.

What substance?

You claimed that Kaiten was boring - subjective - fine.

You claimed that Kaiten only provided flare.

Yes, and since you're apparently too lazy to read the threads, I'll summarize it for you in this one:

- Without Kaiten, kenki management is no longer necessary at all, which dumbs-down the gameplay.
- Without Kaiten, the choice of how to spend kenki no longer exists, which dumbs-down the gameplay.
- Without Kaiten, the choice of when to spend kenki no longer matters, which dumbs-down the gameplay.
- Without Kaiten, Iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri hit for drastically less than they used to, which makes the job's entire kit feel flat and unsatisfying, and also makes burst windows far less important, which dumbs-down the gameplay.

Also, many players care about the animation and/or audio flourish that Kaiten provided to herald an incoming massive hit - more of a nuanced point, but worth noting.
Also, though many players would probably not notice it consciously, the RDM style action-action-wait- that Kaiten + Iaijutsu [cast] is/was important to feel - again, more of a nuanced point, but worth noting.

That's from this same thread, although such points have been made several if not dozens of times by now. Your claim has already been addressed ad nauseum - no need for further debate, you just needed to read the thread.

You claimed that the samurai community hasn't been able to defend their wishes for Kaiten to be reinstated and merely screech incessantly - our rationale for wanting it back has been articulated many, many times by now - again, you just didn't read the threads.

[Kazimere]

What substance?

You claimed that Kaiten was boring - subjective - fine.

You claimed that Kaiten only provided flare.



That's from this same thread, although such points have been made several if not dozens of times by now. Your claim has already been addressed ad nauseum - no need for further debate, you just needed to read the thread.

You claim that the samurai community hasn't been able to defend their wishes for Kaiten to be reinstated and merely screech incessantly - our rationale for wanting it back has been articulated many, many times by now - again, you just didn't read the threads.

You're claims are subjective and feelings based. You want to bring back an ability with what could be argued as objectively false claims as justification for its existence. Like, why not have Kaiten come back as an ability that lets you turn your Iaijutsu into insta cast, or something far more interesting and interactive than a dmg increase for a dopamine hit?

[cjbeagle]

You're claims are subjective and feelings based. You want to bring back an ability with what could be argued as objectively false claims as justification for its existence.

The removal of Kaiten drastically simplified kenki management - that isn't subjective.

The removal of Kaiten made all kenki spenders have the same kenki-to-potency ratio, so assuming you want to save your movement abilities for when you need movement, Shinten is now your only spender. The removal of that choice and thereby simplification of the job isn't subjective.

The removal of Kaiten made the timing of your kenki spending no longer tied to sen since you no longer need to spend it prior Iaijutsu - you also no longer need kenki to use Ogi Namikiri optimally, so outside of burst windows, the timing of when you spend kenki no longer matters. That isn't subjective.

Having drastically lower burst obviously means less damage during the burst window, which obviously lessens the importance of coordinating with burst windows. That isn't subjective.

If you think you can argue that those are objectively false claims, go for it.

Like, why not have Kaiten come back as an ability that lets you turn your Iaijutsu into insta cast, or something far more interesting and interactive than a dmg increase for a dopamine hit?

For a few reasons, speaking only for myself at this point:

- The entire job design is building up resources for a big finisher - sure, it's "just feel", but it feels bad when that big finisher isn't big. It'd be like if Reaper's Enshroud window was only a slight dps increase compared to their normal rotation.

- Kenki management. It wasn't hard before, but without Kaiten it's completely braindead. Some people are fine with that change, some aren't - personally I enjoyed the little extra demand - kinda like positionals - they aren't hard, but they're better than nothing.

- "Feel" (the "wind-up" facet as well as the RDM action-action-wait cadence) - both subjective, but personally, I appreciated both.

[Kazimere]

The removal of Kaiten drastically simplified kenki management - that isn't subjective.

The removal of Kaiten made all kenki spenders have the same kenki-to-potency ratio, so assuming you want to save your movement abilities for when you need movement, Shinten is now your only spender. The removal of that choice and thereby simplification of the job isn't subjective.

The removal of Kaiten made the timing of your kenki spending no longer tied to sen since you no longer need to spend it prior Iaijutsu - you also no longer need kenki to use Ogi Namikiri optimally, so outside of burst windows, the timing of when you spend kenki no longer matters. That isn't subjective.

Having drastically lower burst obviously means less damage during the burst window, which obviously lessens the importance of coordinating with burst windows. That isn't subjective.

If you think you can argue that those are objectively false claims, go for it.

There hasn't been Kenki management since SE made it so you got the maximum amount of potency so long as you were in combo. So, ShB launch? Each Sen gained gave you enough Kenki to use Kiaten. In EW you had to REALLY try to not have Kenki for Kaiten. No, there was no management and claiming that Kaiten's removal simplifies things is disingenuous. That isn't subjective.

Good, your burst needed to be clipped. That is not subjective.

The other claims are just fluff that were tied to Kenki "management," which I have refuted. Try harder.

[KurenXIV]

Good, your burst needed to be clipped. That is not subjective.

Kazimere big mad that his brain dead RPR isn't top DPS lol

[Kazimere]

Kazimere big mad that his brain dead RPR isn't top DPS lol

Sam big mad that their not a lock for speed anymore.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Kazimere big mad that his brain dead RPR isn't top DPS lol

Ridiculous that Kazimere is still here after multiple reports for their toxicity when I’ve seen people get a ban for pointing important truths like trying to tell players of a job their wrong when theydon’t even have the job at level cap. Feedback is important from all sources but I think its important to point for the devs when feedback isn’t coming from a good place…

[cjbeagle]

There hasn't been Kenki management since SE made it so you got the maximum amount of potency so long as you were in combo. So, ShB launch? Each Sen gained gave you enough Kenki to use Kiaten. In EW you had to REALLY try to not have Kenki for Kaiten. No, there was no management and claiming that Kaiten's removal simplifies things is disingenuous. That isn't subjective.

Good, your burst needed to be clipped. That is not subjective.

The other claims are just fluff that were tied to Kenki "management," which I have refuted. Try harder.

As for kenki management, it isn't about how much you generate, it's about not using Shinten mindlessly and thereby screwing yourself by not having enough for Kaiten when you need it for Iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri, and now using Shinten mindlessly is exactly what we're left with.

The current state is literally what you had to do to fail at kenki management previously - if you don't see that as a degradation, you're the one who's being disingenuous.

Whether or not you think our burst needed to be lowered is both irrelevant and subjective, but even if it did need to be lowered, that doesn't refute the idea that lowering the importance of coordinated burst windows dumbs down the gameplay, let alone objectively refute it.

Lastly, you didn't address the removal of choice on how or when to spend kenki, and those aren't just fluff tied to kenki management - they're the difference between kenki being part of the rotation as opposed to just mindless spam.

[Quor]

There hasn't been Kenki management since SE made it so you got the maximum amount of potency so long as you were in combo. So, ShB launch? Each Sen gained gave you enough Kenki to use Kiaten. In EW you had to REALLY try to not have Kenki for Kaiten. No, there was no management and claiming that Kaiten's removal simplifies things is disingenuous. That isn't subjective.

Good, your burst needed to be clipped. That is not subjective.

The other claims are just fluff that were tied to Kenki "management," which I have refuted. Try harder.

Potency boosts for positionals in place of boosted Kenki management was added with 6.0, which was also the patch that added in the current problem of "damage variance" via the second charges on Meikyo and Kaeshi as well as the advent of Ogi Namikiri. Which is why a number of us have been advocating for going back PAST 6.0 to 5.58 because it's clear that the decisions made in 6.0 set the stage for what happened in 6.1. While most of us would be happy with a 6.08 reversion, if "damage variance" is truly as big a deal as SE says it is then it would be better to cut out the new stuff and instead of deleting a core SAM part that's been in the game since Stormblood. Of course, such a thing is likely impossible. Or, to put it another way, SE has dug themselves into the current hole that SAM is in through their own job design decisions. Their solution to getting out of this hole was to blow a crater in the field so that everything is the same depth as the hole they dug vs. simply filling the hole back in again.

As to your comment about "no Kenki management" that's just plain wrong. As it's been said many, MANY times before, even if it only took one brain cell to manage Kenki before 6.1 then that was still one more braincell than is used mindlessly spamming Shinten.

[ThorneDynasty]

You're claims are subjective and feelings based. You want to bring back an ability with what could be argued as objectively false claims as justification for its existence. Like, why not have Kaiten come back as an ability that lets you turn your Iaijutsu into insta cast, or something far more interesting and interactive than a dmg increase for a dopamine hit?

Notice how you just made an argument for not removing kaiten?

Objective or not, countless of counterpoints have been raised already dissecting the role of kaiten in SAM rotation. Instead of tackling any of them on their merits or saying anything of substance you just go "no kaiten is boring".