*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Dikatis]

Why? It doesnt matter how smart or wise you feel you are, if you can get casually smitten out of existence by a being with magical powers that lives forever you simply cannot compete because you cannot attain that level of power, especially considering your extremely limited lifespan.

I mean, eh? The Warrior of Light was able to battle Venat evenly in a friendly spar as well as triumph over several prototypes of Lahabrea's masterworks in Pandaemonium. The Warrior of Light (with of lots of help) also triumphs over multiple unsundered beings, including Emet-Selch and Hesperos. Saying that any unsundered could just "smite" a sundered being with a wave of their hand is overstating things a little.

World is filled with conflict and people fighting and hating each other unlike the far more united society of the ancients who even when they had disagreements it didnt result in cycles of war and death and hatred.
That is because just like real life the fact remains, he who has power can do whatever to the one who does not, which often leads to things like Garleans who even without Emet Selch would inevitably try to get revenge for the crimes they suffered in the past if they ever found a power, so would the beast tribes and many other nations

We don't know what life is like outside of Amaurot and we only have Emet's (heavily biased) narration to go by. The idea that the unsundered world is bereft of any and all conflict is also inherently false, as the ancients developed weaponry, martial arts, and incredibly powerful combat and creation magics. These things do not come into existence in a world free of conflict of any sort. Even Hythlodaeus, who calls himself "pedestrian" by the ancients' standards, is a skilled archer able to use techniques akin to a master bard.

And if we are to be honest, this is a video game, in reality you would never just barge into Ishgard, a place where the populace lives under huge delusions and cult level historical knowledge and suddenly make everyone friends with their enemies, fundamental delusions such as those take GENERATIONS to be removed who suffered unjust acts in their relatively recent history.

We didn't "barge" into Ishgard. We were invited as a ward of House Fortemps thanks to Haurchefant's glowing commendation and Edmont's trouble saying "no" to Haurchefant. Even then, WoL is shown repeatedly to be incredibly social, possessing an "irrepressible aura of reliability" that gets people to trust them. Alphinaud and Tataru are also fast talkers and charismatic speakers, while House Fortemps and the Scions' previous dealing with Aymeric give the heroes a direct line to the highest ranking individuals in the Temple Knights. And saying, "Well, in reality..." only goes so far in an inherently fictional and idealistic universe. Otherwise Nanamo, Kan-E, Aymeric, Raubahn, Lyse, Hien, and Merlwyb would not all be compassionate and competent world leaders striving to work together in service of their people.

[EaraGrace]

If you care about justice you wouldnt be defending hydealin's genocide of the ancients, if you care about prevention of suffering you again cant defend Hydaelin's sundered creation that is filled with it which is far more than the sundered parodies.

Moral disagreements are tricky. I think we can disagree on what is the right course of action without being dismissive.

Unless they regained their godlike by the the end they are still inferior and many times weaker than they were before, some personal realization about life does not compensate for loss of LITERALLY godlike powers.

Why? It doesnt matter how smart or wise you feel you are, if you can get casually smitten out of existence by a being with magical powers that lives forever you simply cannot compete because you cannot attain that level of power, especially considering your extremely limited lifespan.

So the only thing that matters is being powerful? There’s no end goal behind that? Might makes right and all?

World is filled with conflict and people fighting and hating each other unlike the far more united society of the ancients who even when they had disagreements it didnt result in cycles of war and death and hatred.
That is because just like real life the fact remains, he who has power can do whatever to the one who does not, which often leads to things like Garleans who even without Emet Selch would inevitably try to get revenge for the crimes they suffered in the past if they ever found a power, so would the beast tribes and many other nations

This is a pretty pessimistic view of humanity I will say. If the only thing preventing someone from being a monster is getting what he wants, then I’d say they are a child throwing a tantrum.

And if we are to be honest, this is a video game, in reality you would never just barge into Ishgard, a place where the populace lives under huge delusions and cult level historical knowledge and suddenly make everyone friends with their enemies, fundamental delusions such as those take GENERATIONS to be removed who suffered unjust acts in their relatively recent history.

I do remember the game going to the great lengths to show how difficult the change was so I’m not sure this is an accurate description.

And that is a statement with no evidence, the Ancients were a heavy research focused civilization, meaning if a change was needed they would accept it, just like they accepted sacrificing half their number to protect the star.

They would accept being Sundered?

People need to stop confusing "we need to build things back after a worldwide catastrophy" with "attachments and refusal to change".

I would suggest telling the Ancients and the writers that then friend. They seem to disagree.

If you home gets devastated you dont just accept it and stay homeless, you try to build it back up to how it was with possibly some improvements

Immortality, godlike powers of creation and having thousands of years do make that a certainty, they might have even found a superior solution.

Sure rebuilding is important. But so is remembering the event and trying your best to help others. The third sacrifice, as well as the statements of the Ancients through ShB and EW do not indicate that they were doing that.

[KariTheFox]

the Ancients were a heavy research focused civilization,

Were they? I mean, to a degree I think so, but I feel like as a society they were much more interested in philosphy and aesthetics than pure research. Rather than seeking knowledge for its own sake, it seems like they mostly researched for the purposes of improving thier star (or at least, thier idea of what improvements to the star ought to look like,)

I'm not saying they didn't do research, just that it was secondary to the philosophic and aesthetic sides of thier culture. After all, if they were really research focused they would have more curiosity about dynames in the first plaxe, instead of it being a random academic footnote, and Hermes wouldn't have been the only person ever involved in a space program.

[Lyth]

This is an MMORPG, sure. But if you're 'role-playing' a character as the term suggests, then you act in accordance with what that character would do in that circumstance, not what you want said character to do.

The reason why Azem fought and killed Emet was because Emet's plan mandated not only Azem's death but the death of everyone and everything that they've ever known and loved. Even if you really like Emet's character and prefer his ideological stance as an audience member, it really doesn't make sense for your character to meekly let Emet kill them in order to achieve it. That's OOC. Azem's going to fight for survival, even if it means having to fight an misguided old friend in a battle to the death in the process.

Everyone has their own ideologies on what would make a better world. According to the Endsinger, there'd be no more suffering if she brought an end to all life. Truly a superior state of things! Emet thought the world would be a better place if he sacrificed 13 worlds full of people to force a hard reset back to zero on the Source, allowing him to repopulate his Lego Amaurot with new people bearing the repaired souls of his dead friends. Azem thought the world would be a better place if we just punch out all the megalomaniacs so that everyone can just get back to eating delicious polygonal grapes. We all had our parts to play. And when the dust settled, we're here, and they're not. It is what it is. All you can do is to heed his last words and to remember.



Good night, sweet prince. And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

[Ralphe2449]

So the only thing that matters is being powerful? There’s no end goal behind that? Might makes right and all?

Might does not make right, but might doesnt give a damn about what is right because it does what it wants and cant be stopped by anything other than an equal force of often might.

If the only thing preventing someone from being a monster is getting what he wants, then I’d say they are a child throwing a tantrum.

I was referring to individuals who dont moan or cry about fate and simply find a way to get what they want, in any way possible, they are not limited by "morality" unlike some therefore they have more tools to get what they want.

I do remember the game going to the great lengths to show how difficult the change was so I’m not sure this is an accurate description.

I wont disagree but it is limited by its medium as a video game, it needs to say a story, it cannot wait decades to show the end result and slow progress since well, not really possible.

They would accept being Sundered?

Accept losing their godlike powers? Accepting dying so early you barely discover a small of reality?
Again the objective value of such powers is enormous, it isnt like you lost a finger

I would suggest telling the Ancients and the writers that then friend. They seem to disagree.

Well yeah, they wanted to tell a somewhat satisfying story to most so of course they did, I wasnt a big fun of the unrealistic happy ending either though the journey was done quite well.
Still dont feel Emet was depicted like he should considering the SHB baseline.

Sure rebuilding is important. But so is remembering the event and trying your best to help others. The third sacrifice, as well as the statements of the Ancients through ShB and EW do not indicate that they were doing that.

The goal is rebuilding, they arent gonna forget the final days obviously since it would be a subject worth researching.

Another issue I have with the writing, they took the ancients from an ultra honestly overpowered position and made them desperate and easily panicked people who suddenly stopped caring about everything and obsessed over zodiarc sacrifices, like going from a highly intelligent species to a highly emotional species.

Like I am not against what they were planning, but it did feel extremely rushed and emotional rather than carefully planned.

I mean, eh? The Warrior of Light was able to battle Venat evenly in a friendly spar as well as triumph over several prototypes of Lahabrea's masterworks in Pandaemonium. The Warrior of Light (with of lots of help) also triumphs over multiple unsundered beings, including Emet-Selch and Hesperos. Saying that any unsundered could just "smite" a sundered being with a wave of their hand is overstating things a little.

I mean let's be honest, it is a video game and the good guy has to win somehow no matter how impossible the odds.

And if we are to follow the lore it would be as Emet said, "we would be as leaves in the wind" compared to him power wise since he is unsundered even when he was emotional unbalanced due to you having the soul of Azem.

Though let's not forget hydaelin's blessing since she is a primal of ancient time she must have considerable power to give so that could possibly balance the scales a bit, even Venat says she sees her blessing on you so it is the only way I am choosing to believe we are able to contest against unsundered individuals.

We don't know what life is like outside of Amaurot and we only have Emet's (heavily biased) narration to go by.

This feels like the same argument before shb and sometimes even during Shb "Well we dont know, Zodiarc might be some l33t ultra evil literally the devil primal that has totally compelled Emet do and believe all the things he said" even though we knew Primals dont have a personal will, their will is the purpose they were created for.
At this point it is just extreme speculation to justify your position

After all, if they were really research focused they would have more curiosity about dynamis in the first place, instead of it being a random academic footnote, and Hermes wouldn't have been the only person ever involved in a space program.

I would assume that is because at that current moment they knew very little about dynamis and they were busy researching things that are far more tangible and will lead to a breakthrough quicker.

In time though dynamis would get its turn when the more high priority subjects were researched.
And hermes definitely seemed to be a bit damaged considering he somehow decided that the view of species extremely different and in different situations or worlds matters to him, rather than having the ability to hold his own view he needed support from space...

[QUOTE=Lyth;5958070]This is an MMORPG, sure. But if you're 'role-playing' a character as the term suggests, then you act in accordance with what that character would do in that circumstance, not what you want said character to do.[quote]
The term roleplay does not mean you have to play somebody other than yourself, you can very easily "roleplay" yourself in that world/universe/environement etc

[Dikatis]

Another issue I have with the writing, they took the ancients from an ultra honestly overpowered position and made them desperate and easily panicked people who suddenly stopped caring about everything and obsessed over zodiarc sacrifices, like going from a highly intelligent species to a highly emotional species.

Like I am not against what they were planning, but it did feel extremely rushed and emotional rather than carefully planned.

But the ancients aren't robots. Emet-Selch's phantom Amaurot is explicitly his nostalgia-ridden intepretation of his people as infinitely benevolent, wise, and compassionate creatures. In truth, they had all the foibles of the "lesser" beings they reincarnated into including a very understandable fear of the skies turning red, meteors dropping out of the sky, and their creations turned into Lovecraftian abominations.

I was referring to individuals who dont moan or cry about fate and simply find a way to get what they want, in any way possible, they are not limited by "morality" unlike some therefore they have more tools to get what they want.

So you're simultaneously referring to the ancients as morally and intellectually superior beings while also saying that they should resort to any sort of morally depraved means to get what they want? The ancients were constantly bemoaning their fate and could not fathom a way to get out of their predicament other than Zodiark. Venat's fear is that they would end up sacrificing themselves and producing a society not unlike the Plenty, which summarily offed itself once it ran out of things to do.

I mean let's be honest, it is a video game and the good guy has to win somehow no matter how impossible the odds.

And if we are to follow the lore it would be as Emet said, "we would be as leaves in the wind" compared to him power wise since he is unsundered even when he was emotional unbalanced due to you having the soul of Azem.

Though let's not forget hydaelin's blessing since she is a primal of ancient time she must have considerable power to give so that could possibly balance the scales a bit, even Venat says she sees her blessing on you so it is the only way I am choosing to believe we are able to contest against unsundered individuals.

Yes, we had help, but we still won. Emet brought his full strength to bear against us in the final battle and we won. Barely, but a victory is a victory even if it was a collaborative effort.

Elidibus also freaks out upon seeing Zenos, a sundered being who should be swatted like a fly by your logic, and hightails it rather than fighting him despite possessing Zenos' superior body. So the Unsundered, while extremely powerful, are not insurmountable.

Besides, we've triumphed over other unsundered beings of godlike power before like Nidhogg and Omega (again with help, but we beat them, with Hraesvelgr noting that it was the WoL's skill that won the day, his eye just evened the power levels). Being unsundered is not an automatic, "I am always better than you."

This feels like the same argument before shb and sometimes even during Shb "Well we dont know, Zodiarc might be some l33t ultra evil literally the devil primal that has totally compelled Emet do and believe all the things he said" even though we knew Primals dont have a personal will, their will is the purpose they were created for.
At this point it is just extreme speculation to justify your position

It's not even just speculation though. For as much as Emet-Selch calls Amaurot a paradise, there are clear and glaring problems with its society. The emphasis on conformity and working toward the benefit of the whole at the expense of the individual means that people who don't fit in feel they have nowhere to go. Hermes is tortured by how he seems to be the only one with empathy for the creations he and his researchers create and unmake on a regular basis. Erichthonios constantly feels overshadowed by his parents and Hesperos mocks him for being inept compared to them.

The ancients' extreme lack of empathy for "lesser" life is part of what set forth the Final Days in earnest, triggering Hermes' desperation to find answers and pushing him over the edge entirely when Emet-Selch asks, "Who are you to judge whether we live or die?" when the ancients did just that on a regular basis. One FATE chain has an Elpis researcher conjure life just for you to slaughter it as a means of deriving some entertainment and inspiration.

The ancients were also suffering from creative sterility and literally could not think of ways of solving their problems other than through their creation magics. In Elpis, WoL has to explain adaptations they've encountered in their travels to solve the issues with the Elpis' researchers creations that they could not themselves. One researcher even says that she's been holed up in Amaurot so long that she had no idea such things could exist. Emet-Selch is blindsided by G'raha's efforts to avert the 8UC because the idea of time travel and traveling across the rift without sacrificing your physical form were all beyond the Ascians.

Amaurot isn't perfect. Chances are the world outside of it is also just as flawed.

I would assume that is because at that current moment they knew very little about dynamis and they were busy researching things that are far more tangible and will lead to a breakthrough quicker.

In time though dynamis would get its turn when the more high priority subjects were researched.
And hermes definitely seemed to be a bit damaged considering he somehow decided that the view of species extremely different and in different situations or worlds matters to him, rather than having the ability to hold his own view he needed support from space...

NO ONE was researching dynamis though. Hermes is literally the only man with a working understanding of it beyond the fact that it exists. Even Venat and Emet-Selch, two of the most accomplished and intelligent members of the Convocation, hadn't heard of it before Hermes explained it to them. Hermes abandoned his research in his grief over "Meteion's destruction". All of his efforts into facilitating Zodiark were looking into aether currents, not dynamis.

[Slatersev]

NO ONE was researching dynamis though. Hermes is literally the only man with a working understanding of it beyond the fact that it exists. Even Venat and Emet-Selch, two of the most accomplished and intelligent members of the Convocation, hadn't heard of it before Hermes explained it to them. Hermes abandoned his research in his grief over "Meteion's destruction". All of his efforts into facilitating Zodiark were looking into aether currents, not dynamis.

Venat says she has heard of it, but in the same way a real life person would be aware of the concept of "Dark Matter" IE without any real depth of knowledge regarding what it actually is and can do. Which makes sense, nobody in the real world has any actual idea of what Dark Matter actually is.

[KageTokage]

I really struggle to believe that the Ancients couldn't have figured out a way to combat the Endsinger if they had actually known what was going on and that dynamis was the element responsible for causing the Final Days.

Looking at the circumstances under which people were turning in the present time, many managed to overcome it simply through possessing a strong will to live, and if the Ancients hadn't already possessed such a will they would've all simply gone mad and died off before they summoned Zodiark. There is no indication that experiencing suffering and hardship was essential to overcoming despair, and in fact many of the people in the role quests ended up turning specifically because they couldn't get over the trauma they experienced previously, so it comes across as an outstandingly weak line of reasoning to me.

The more important aspect was being capable of manipulating dynamis through a lower aetherial density, and that could've been achieved by proxy with creations, having some bold Ancients like the current Azem volunteer to be sundered, and other unexplored avenues, but alas, they were never permitted such an opportunity.

[Lyth]

We still don't really know the specific circumstances around the original Final Days, though. The Final Days didn't manifest in Thavnair until Khalzahl transformed. Only after did the skies burn and people started transforming en masse. We don't know anything about Amaurot's index case, aside from the recollection of a 'terrible cry from within the earth'. Without that critical bit of information, how could anyone put a stop to it? The Amaurotians didn't have space travel; Meteion was their first foray into space. Even had they known who the culprit was, their only choice would have been to weather the storm until the Ragnarok was invented.

What I'm especially curious to see is what the consequences are of Lahabrea's hemitheos research. If the timing is what I think it is, this is a powderkeg waiting to go off.

[Ralphe2449]

I really struggle to believe that the Ancients couldn't have figured out a way to combat the Endsinger if they had actually known what was going on and that dynamis was the element responsible for causing the Final Days.

But that is something people underestimate, we are talking about IMMORTALS with the power of literal creation and thousands of years under Zodiarc's shield to find out what caused it, that means it would be almost a certainty that they could have dealt with the final days themselves. You dont even have to sunder Azem, just keep making creations with different levels of aether and observe the results, you got thousands of years to tinker with the right amount of stats etc

Sooner or later even if they didnt find anything(Which is extremely doubtful cuz people would want to research wtf caused the final days) they would send or go with their creation outside of the shield of Zodiarc for exploration purposes alone meaning they will instantly see how the song of oblivion affects their low in aether creations and instantly realize the problem remains.

Then you remember that the Ancients were not affected by the song due to how dense in aether they were, meaning they could literally just go to the source of the song themselves and slap the dumb bird out of existence or throw some enormous aether bomb in the general area that is the source of the song if it cant be found due to how the terrain changed due to dynamis.

Unlike the frail weak sundered people of the shards that live for only a tiny fraction of the ancient's existence, the ancients got the time and power to fix any problem.

If anything the only reason the sundered defeated the endsinger is because it is a video game and the good guys gotta win no matter how ridiculously impossible the odds are.