*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Lyth]

We still don't really know the specific circumstances around the original Final Days, though. The Final Days didn't manifest in Thavnair until Khalzahl transformed. Only after did the skies burn and people started transforming en masse. We don't know anything about Amaurot's index case, aside from the recollection of a 'terrible cry from within the earth'. Without that critical bit of information, how could anyone put a stop to it? The Amaurotians didn't have space travel; Meteion was their first foray into space. Even had they known who the culprit was, their only choice would have been to weather the storm until the Ragnarok was invented.

What I'm especially curious to see is what the consequences are of Lahabrea's hemitheos research. If the timing is what I think it is, this is a powderkeg waiting to go off.

[Ralphe2449]

I really struggle to believe that the Ancients couldn't have figured out a way to combat the Endsinger if they had actually known what was going on and that dynamis was the element responsible for causing the Final Days.

But that is something people underestimate, we are talking about IMMORTALS with the power of literal creation and thousands of years under Zodiarc's shield to find out what caused it, that means it would be almost a certainty that they could have dealt with the final days themselves. You dont even have to sunder Azem, just keep making creations with different levels of aether and observe the results, you got thousands of years to tinker with the right amount of stats etc

Sooner or later even if they didnt find anything(Which is extremely doubtful cuz people would want to research wtf caused the final days) they would send or go with their creation outside of the shield of Zodiarc for exploration purposes alone meaning they will instantly see how the song of oblivion affects their low in aether creations and instantly realize the problem remains.

Then you remember that the Ancients were not affected by the song due to how dense in aether they were, meaning they could literally just go to the source of the song themselves and slap the dumb bird out of existence or throw some enormous aether bomb in the general area that is the source of the song if it cant be found due to how the terrain changed due to dynamis.

Unlike the frail weak sundered people of the shards that live for only a tiny fraction of the ancient's existence, the ancients got the time and power to fix any problem.

If anything the only reason the sundered defeated the endsinger is because it is a video game and the good guys gotta win no matter how ridiculously impossible the odds are.

[Dikatis]

Then you remember that the Ancients were not affected by the song due to how dense in aether they were, meaning they could literally just go to the source of the song themselves and slap the dumb bird out of existence or throw some enormous aether bomb in the general area that is the source of the song if it cant be found due to how the terrain changed due to dynamis.

Unlike the frail weak sundered people of the shards that live for only a tiny fraction of the ancient's existence, the ancients got the time and power to fix any problem.

They could not. They were not immediately affected by Meteion's song on Etheirys, but ANY of their creations can be warped and turned against them. Given that the creation magics you so extol make up most of the ancients' attempts to solve problems, this means they could not do much of anything against her. In addition, aetheric density means little when 63% of the energy in the universe is being directed at you as a "you no longer exist" beam. The only reason why aetheric beings can survive in Ultima Thule is if they're able to manipulate dynamis to counteract Meteion's hold over it.

Even if the ancients had reached Ultima Thule, they'd suffocate to death and have nothing to stand on to reach and fight her.

If anything the only reason the sundered defeated the endsinger is because it is a video game and the good guys gotta win no matter how ridiculously impossible the odds are.

"Frail, weak beings" like Zenos scared Elidibus enough to make him abandon Zenos' own "frail" body rather than face Zenos himself. "Frail, weak beings" like WoL triumphed over multiple Unsundered beings like Nidhogg, Omega, Emet-Selch, Ultima, and Elidibus. The ancients' creation magics can be considered "godlike", but they're not truly perfect, immortal beings. The ancients were flawed people who often used their powers irresponsibly and were not insurmountable. The whole point of Elpis is to show that Emet-Selch's account is being filtered through his immense sentimentality for his people in a way that covers up their flaws. Hence why the phantom Amaurot has the ancients all be mature, wise, and kind when the actual ancients were often pompous, arrogant, forgetful, and suffering from their self-imposed isolation in a way that stifled their creativity.

If your response to everything the story tells you is "la la la la Protags have PLOT ARMOR la la la la" then I don't know what to tell you other than that you're purposefully not engaging with the narrative to satisfy your headcanon.

[KageTokage]

They could not. They were not immediately affected by Meteion's song on Etheirys, but ANY of their creations can be warped and turned against them. Given that the creation magics you so extol make up most of the ancients' attempts to solve problems, this means they could not do much of anything against her. In addition, aetheric density means little when 63% of the energy in the universe is being directed at you as a "you no longer exist" beam. The only reason why aetheric beings can survive in Ultima Thule is if they're able to manipulate dynamis to counteract Meteion's hold over it.

Even if the ancients had reached Ultima Thule, they'd suffocate to death and have nothing to stand on to reach and fight her.

Their creations weren't any more susceptible to dynamis then the sundered themselves, so I still fail to see what would keep them from engineering something that could manipulate dynamis and fight back.

It really just comes across as an element that was introduced mostly for the sake of (Unconvincingly) creating a threat that they couldn't deal with due to the intrinsic nature of their being.

[Lyth]

Creation magic cannot be used to make a person with a soul. Meteion could experience others' emotions, being an entelechy, but they were never her own. Like the Elpis blooms, she was only a reflection of the ambient emotion, so she just ended up being a conduit that. So I wonder if you actually can make a creation that's capable of acting against the prevailing emotion (i.e. something that can interact with dynamis that can also resist being influenced by it). A spark of joy in an ocean of despair.

I think the closest that you can get is to make a hemitheos, which I suspect became the basis for Zodiark/Elidibus' later design. But I suppose we'll find out whether that's a smart idea pretty soon.

Either way, Creation magic is just one tool out of many. Remember, the Loporrits can use it as well, so it's hardly a mark of omnipotence.

[Absimiliard]

Do bear in mind that some of the creatures born of creation magicks did in fact gain souls, but it wasn't because of anything the ancients did. Sometimes the planet just spontaneously hooked them up.

[Alenore]

They could not. They were not immediately affected by Meteion's song on Etheirys, but ANY of their creations can be warped and turned against them. Given that the creation magics you so extol make up most of the ancients' attempts to solve problems, this means they could not do much of anything against her. In addition, aetheric density means little when 63% of the energy in the universe is being directed at you as a "you no longer exist" beam. The only reason why aetheric beings can survive in Ultima Thule is if they're able to manipulate dynamis to counteract Meteion's hold over it.

Even if the ancients had reached Ultima Thule, they'd suffocate to death and have nothing to stand on to reach and fight her.

So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

Creation magic cannot be used to make a person with a soul. Meteion could experience others' emotions, being an entelechy, but they were never her own. Like the Elpis blooms, she was only a reflection of the ambient emotion, so she just ended up being a conduit that. So I wonder if you actually can make a creation that's capable of acting against the prevailing emotion (i.e. something that can interact with dynamis that can also resist being influenced by it). A spark of joy in an ocean of despair.

I think the closest that you can get is to make a hemitheos, which I suspect became the basis for Zodiark/Elidibus' later design. But I suppose we'll find out whether that's a smart idea pretty soon.

Either way, Creation magic is just one tool out of many. Remember, the Loporrits can use it as well, so it's hardly a mark of omnipotence.

That's wrong. Lupins have souls and were made by creation magick. So were Arkasoa. Hell, we even created one through alchemical processes for the Anima weapon.
They mention that any lifeform may have a soul, but they don't control which one do: it's literally just the domain of nature, and if the creation is close enough to natural, it'll get a soul. It's the difference between arcane entities and living beings.

[KageTokage]

It was stated that entities that are "self-sustaining through the laws of nature" were capable of gaining souls.

I think that would entail them being alive in the sense of needing things like air, water, and food to exist, unlike arcane entities which seem to require naught but raw aether to sustain their being.

The fact that the star is so picky about the matter to begin with really makes me feel as though it's always had a "will" of its own.

[Dikatis]

So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

Meteion was not imbued with the "hope" and "will" of the ancients. She was a space probe designed to possess exceedingly little aether (even less than ours) specifically to better respond to emotions and harness dynamis so she would not need sustenance on her long space voyages. And yes, she did succumb to despair and was consumed by the negative emotions she was forced to absorb due to her uncontrollable empathic powers, resulting in her becoming the source of the Final Days and transforming other creations into terminus beasts. The science of creating entelechies was also lost when Hermes abandoned his project after "Meteion's death".

Her final plan was to silence all of creation by preventing any new life from forming, thus sparing herself the agony of people succumbing to despair. The only way she'd be able to do that from Ultima Thule is if she's gathering dynamis from the entire universe to strengthen her Song of Despair.

Also, you plan to defeat Meteion is... to create more Meteions?

[Lyth]

...

Lv. 86 'Lives Apart':

Hermes: 'Tell me─do you know the difference between living beings and arcane entities? It is the presence of a soul.

Yet the soul isn't something you can choose to have at will. No, it manifests only in those beings whose forms adhere to the laws of creation. That can endure on their own. Beings that do not fulfill this requirement, such as those spontaneously born of magic or natural phenomena, do not have souls. No matter how much it might resemble flora or fauna, if it lacks a soul, then it is considered an arcane entity.

So you see, it is not for mankind to decide what is living. That domain lies beyond our manipulation, and it is hubris to assume otherwise.'

There is, of course, a caveat to this:

'Hythlodaeus stretched out a hand to the enormous gate that stood before them. Soundlessly, the towering doors swung open... and Hades found himself wincing at the ear-rending cry that emanated from within. Furrowing his brow, he stepped across the threshold to be greeted with the sight of a magnificent bird, its plumes fairly afire, circling high in the vaulted hall. Having marked the creature's undeniable beauty, it took him but another moment to identify the problem ─ an unmistakable light shining in its heart. His breath caught in his throat.

"A soul... How?"

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth ─ anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it ─ a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."

Creation magic can create only vessels, not souls. Souls without a vessel can latch to an available one, which underpins Ascian bodyswaps, Voidsent summoning, the hemitheos, and likely also Zodiark's construction.