What are alternative healing options you want to see on a new healer class?

[Shurrikhan]

a damage-based healer doesnt mean that damage translates into healing all the time, or even in the same way for every single spell.

If it's not at least a majority of the time, though, what differs said "damage-based healer" from a healer with some healing-bundled offensive tools (a la Assize)? Else, if I stick Kardia's effect on a cooldown and give also it to SCH, does SCH now become more centrally a "damage-based healer" than a traditional one?

You're insisting that it is possible, that it can handle the given constraints, with enough creativity, but the idea itself is the constraint. Prominently tying damage to healing, and especially healing based on damage, is more restrictive in its kit possibilities and has historically been a nightmare to balance that has left thus designed classes simply less flexible, less dynamic of supports than more traditional modes.

That's not to say elements of that can't be done. But every attempt to have that account for a majority (or even more than some third or so) of a class's healing output has consistently led to that class simply being unable to deal flexibly with higher damage or higher healing needs because they literally cannot significantly sacrifice the one for the other (they are, after all, the same thing for that class).

Compare that, even, against more "traditional" modes of damage-healing synergy, such as each spells of either type empowering or hastening your next (or, next non-filler) spell of the other type. That's standard-fair healer kit stuff, as opposed to vampirism or other forms of damage-based healing, but actually allows the kit to feel slightly more dynamic. Damage-based healing, on the other, in even in more healing-intensive games, tends to lead to

• most GCDs just being spent on Filler-Attack to simultaneously damage and heal,
• simply cycling GCD-granted buffs just so your damage can heal others (with your "pure damage" state simply forgoing time spent buffing for a modest increase in damage relative to traditional healers),
• or having an otherwise mostly DPS-esque kit but healing someone or those nearby for X% of damage dealt (and therefore needing to hold onto DPS CDs to meet healing checks, causing your combined output to typically fall short of traditional healers unless the fight happens to time out in your favor).

The first tends to be duller even than what we have now if not for the necessitated self-made burst damage windows; the second gives little gameplay not already managed by any other buff-dense healer; the last is a decent way to get DPS to flex into heals but can rarely be used for both slots in any serious content due to its costs for any flexibility.

Yes, some damage-based healing is fine. An altogether "damage-based healer," though, is so constrained that it would tend to occupy only specific niches. And they'd make for quite the prog-to-farm balancing headache regardless.

[QooEr]

Yes, some damage-based healing is fine. An altogether "damage-based healer," though, is so constrained that it would tend to occupy only specific niches. And they'd make for quite the prog-to-farm balancing headache regardless.

i see your point, im not saying they should make sage a fully or even a mostly damage based healer. but they should still give more options to lean into the fantasy. we dont have "some" damage-based healing. we have ONE skill out of 25.

i think this sentence you said kind of sums it up perfectly because of how underwhelming and uncreative sage turned out to be.

if I stick Kardia's effect on a cooldown and give also it to SCH, does SCH now become more centrally a "damage-based healer"

i just want them to play more with kardia, and to give us more dps spells that have different kardia effects. sage doesnt need to do 60% of its healing through dps to feel like a damage based healer, even 30% would make it feel like it imo.

[Jirah]

None of this makes sense.

By pointless I’ll give you some insight. What’s the point of healers? To use one button forever and for always? Course not because that’s why a lot of healers hate their roles. Damage output is heavily scripted and weak and gives very little imagination besides spam a button. Sage, by comparison requires you to spam. Kardia doesn’t apply to any other of its 2 attacks so Dosis Dosis Dosis and more Dosis it is. Isn’t it lovely not to utilize your tools? I don’t think so

So unlike AST WHM and SCH that uses at least some diversity to it’s ST heals, then spam when things go dry (which is 98% of the time) SAGE spams to heal, and is getting a standing ovation for it

[Shurrikhan]

i just want them to play more with kardia, and to give us more dps spells that have different kardia effects. sage doesnt need to do 60% of its healing through dps to feel like a damage based healer, even 30% would make it feel like it imo.

Totally agreed, then.

Now, if I may ask you, and anyone else here interested in more interesting Kardia interactions...

What is (y)our head-canon (or, the established lore) for how Kardia actually works?

Depending on that, we have many opportunities for expansion that wouldn't likely feel bloated, unintuitive, or gimmicky.

[QooEr]

Totally agreed, then.

Now, if I may ask you, and anyone else here interested in more interesting Kardia interactions...

What is (y)our head-canon (or, the established lore) for how Kardia actually works?

Depending on that, we have many opportunities for expansion that wouldn't likely feel bloated, unintuitive, or gimmicky.

not sure why lore suddenly matters given ast's track record but...

i guess the aether from the attacks is in part channeled to the receiver too.


in any case, if i was playing with kardia perhaps we could have
- skill that temporarily adds a second kardia target (a la synastry)
- skill that temporarily spreads kardia to all party members
- self-buffs and/or dps spells that change the effect of kardia itself (change the flat heal to a shield, or a regen, or a short mitigation buff, or any kind of buff for that matter)
- dps spells that splash kardia's effect around your target(s)
- sacrifice kardia for a moment to buff oneself, wether thats getting resources or increasing healing/damage potencies (people probably wont like this lol)
i would also make kardia much stronger to make these effects actually worth it, and i would probably add some sort of kardia-less stance that buffs gcd heals to not be at a disadvantage during downtime. downtime healing is actually quite relevant in ultimates.

[TankHunter678]

I would like to see the current healers be redesigned around their flavor more then anything else. WHM for the most part fits its thematic flavor, all it is really missing is more offensive/utility options making use of the other elements usually associated with it namely earth, water, and wind.

SCH is built around tactics and is working off of the base of ACN which is all about Arcane Entities and also tactics. Especially with EW what was there to stop them from having it where the SCH has offensive options where the animations are Arcane Entities carrying out tactical formations? Could have even done the same thing when it comes to the healing side, animation wise literally summoning up arcane constructs to work as a team to cast the more powerful healing magic. Visually at least you would have SCH effectively being the Hero Unit of one of those Turn Based Tactics army games where they could summon a squad of archers to do AoE damage with arrow volleys, calling up swordsmen to flank the enemy for pincer moves, etc.

AST should very much go back to its Utility Time Mage. Manipulating buffs and "prophetic" heals. Getting people through battle by manipulation of fate through a variety of methods. Like they did back in HW/SB.

SGE should definitely lean harder into its barrier and DPS aspects. Negating damage as much as possible with strong shields (please eliminate the focus on crit shields, I preferred AST as my Shield Healer because Noct shields were 100% consistent on top of being minorly stackable) and expand Kardia. Kardia works like a WoW Paladin beacon, and a Holy Paladin just like a Disc Priest had the ability to mark multiple additional targets to proc healing on. It would not be hard to make a skill that just applies a temporary Kardia on everyone within an aoe around you and it would not be hard to make it so that your bigger burst DPS abilities had higher Kardia potencies.

[HyoMinPark]

Damage to heal is a terrible idea, that makes healer essentially pointless. And Kardia is just a phat regen promoting you to spam one skill while the other 3 don’t have to

But healers are dealing damage more than they are healing…

So if a healer were to heal via the damage they dealt, wouldn’t that mean they were still healing? Therefore, healing wouldn’t be pointless? Unless you’re talking about GCD heals, which only WHM really wants to GCD heal if we’re being honest here.

[Shurrikhan]

not sure why lore suddenly matters given ast's track record but...

Working from some central point of lore wouldn't be a necessity, only an anchor for cohesive design. SGE certainly could use anything to center and define its eclectic (largely merely copied and remixed) mess.

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The idea of residual aether from one's attacks is... vague and therefore, well, uninspiring but flexible. We could likely make use of banking and burst tools for it, but it doesn't really seem to indicate any particular features.

The ideas you've suggested all look fun.

The Synastry one probably ought to just be Soteria itself, if used on a particular ally. Remove the stacks limitation and have a brief second Kardia effect, I would think? Stronger and more flexible, at no bloat.

You could also perhaps have a lingering, linearly fading effect from Kardia based on duration it was previously on the target, to a max of 10 seconds or so, encouraging you to rotate it around a bit more? Such could be a bit more complex in practice than a Sage-Deployment, and without needing a discrete CD. (I also wouldn't be opposed to one or more mid-length cooldowns additionally applying Kardia to affected allies, perhaps for a variable duration. That form wouldn't stack, but would still be a separate buff as not to be removed, despite the given ally having been affected by the generating oGCD, from the former Kardia target if/when you move that Kardia.)

:: While it'd certainly be less practical, I would prefer that, say, any splash Kardia heals from Dykrasia similarly splash around the Kardia target, no matter where they may be -- not around the SGE themself, or even necessarily applying Kardia to nearby allies for any duration.

sacrifice kardia for a moment to buff oneself, wether thats getting resources or increasing healing/damage potencies (people probably wont like this lol)

I still think Dissipation would be fine if just tweaked somewhat (greater emergency heal benefits and shorter pet lockout), but yeah, there's a lot of grudge aimed that concept's way at this point.

Agreed in regard to a Kardia-less stance and/or (multi-charge) CD tuned towards downtime. That would likely matter in a fair few encounters.

[QooEr]

Working from some central point of lore wouldn't be a necessity, only an anchor for cohesive design. SGE certainly could use anything to center and define its eclectic (largely merely copied and remixed) mess.

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The idea of residual aether from one's attacks is... vague and therefore, well, uninspiring but flexible. We could likely make use of banking and burst tools for it, but it doesn't really seem to indicate any particular features.

pretty much... its basically saying "kardia does things when you attack".

we could also fixate more on the part that says "magical link between us". perhaps the link could go both ways, and things could proc upon your kardia target attacking or taking damage. Perhaps it could let sage share some personal buffs with its kardia target, but i think sage's fantasy is less about support and more about pew pew beams.

You could also perhaps have a lingering, linearly fading effect from Kardia based on duration it was previously on the target, to a max of 10 seconds or so, encouraging you to rotate it around a bit more?

i like this but kind of for another reason. not to encourage rotating it for the sake of rotating it but to make healing single target damage on non-tanks that failed mechanics or something a bit better for more urgent healing.

:: While it'd certainly be less practical, I would prefer that, say, any splash Kardia heals from Dykrasia similarly splash around the Kardia target, no matter where they may be -- not around the SGE themself

i could see splash effects from kardia working in multiples if you could have several kardias, which means if people stack its kind of like a cure iii that could even be split in light parties. i would love if we actually had more creative synergies with our heals in general beyond "next heal does more healing lol"

[Shurrikhan]

pretty much... its basically saying "kardia does things when you attack".

we could also fixate more on the part that says "magical link between us". perhaps the link could go both ways, and things could proc upon your kardia target attacking or taking damage. Perhaps it could let sage share some personal buffs with its kardia target, but i think sage's fantasy is less about support and more about pew pew beams.

Well, aesthetically that's a simple fix: Give the support pew pew beams. (Ally procs A, beam goes to you; you proc B, beam goes to ally.)

I jest. True, support does not seem pivotal to Sage's identity. (Though, to be fair, neither, aesthetically, does Kardia at all. If we were going off visual theme, we'd be casting geometries for variable effect based on noulith formations like some kind of one-man army trying to play Eve Online in a middle of a high fantasy fight.)

i like this but kind of for another reason. not to encourage rotating it for the sake of rotating it but to make healing single target damage on non-tanks that failed mechanics or something a bit better for more urgent healing.

We probably wouldn't need to tune SGE's overall output back to compensate for that bonus capacity so long as healing remains as easy to overcap as it is now, so yeah, should be able to do that well enough.

i could see splash effects from kardia working in multiples if you could have several kardias, which means if people stack its kind of like a cure iii that could even be split in light parties.

To check, essentially like stacked Dancer heals? Quadratic scaling because each self-AoE hits everyone else too?

I have to admit that level of power worries me, as quadratic scaling in tightly grouped heals would likely fall between 'quite' and 'disgustingly' strong, requiring anything applying multiple Kardias to be treated as a (and perhaps one's only) big raid CD, but would likely still be rather finnicky.

(If this would be limited to when you deal AoE damage, though, it'd be irrelevant... except in that it'd upset balance in light party content, if ever anything actually presenting a challenge were added there. It'd be worthless in almost all raids past Deltascape but broken powerful in dungeons. Hmmm.)