Been seeing a lot of doomsaying in forums/in-game lately

[IdowhatIwant]

It shouldn't be murdering them like the endgame does, but it should at least give them an idea of what to expect IMO.

A great example of this was ARR's endgame dungeons and the way in which they snuck in baby training wheels versions of the Hardmode Primals that followed.

Meanwhile now we get dungeons where it's often best to flat out ignore the bulk of the fight and just beat the boss up. 24 man is even worse with zero reason to put in any effort or care beyond your own pride or OCD.

Extremes are good stepping stones into savage. Specially the EW extremes, they are not very difficult. Truth be told though, there isn't much of a point in adding these baby steps any more. The games community is more divided than it used to be in ARR and HW. Now it seems casual players for some reason resent all difficult content, boycott it, and opt out. I see this repeated a lot now on the forums, "raiders don't pay bills" and a lot of casual players telling players that prefer raid content to flat out quit or leave. When the casual player base has no interest in progressing into harder content, those baby steps become more meaningless. Mean while players that choose to opt in will just dive in head first.

[Skiros]

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of his video and the "Ultimate is the only challenging content" narrative he's got people regurgitating.

I just listed off several fights and pieces of content that are regarded as "more challenging" without even mentioning the current Savage which P3S is widely regarded as tough fight to clear.

None of those fights are remotely challenging to an Ultimate raider.

[Nav_Fae]

I think the Doomsaying is really just on the forums. I don't see it in the game at all. Not in NN, linkshells, FC, parties I join for farming, BLU, maps or hunts. They are all having fun.

I've seen people talk about their frustrations about healers in the game for years but that's about it.

I've done a little doomsaying in game and it's always met with people telling me to unsub

[Havenchild]

Name one Savage or Extreme in Shadowbringers > Endwalker that compares to Kefka, Living Liquid and Thordan. Savage absolutely has gotten easier. When was the last time we saw a third tier fight take world progression teams a week to clear?

Living Liquid was nearly 8 years ago, God Kefka was over 4 years ago, Cruise chaser was a joke if your group had any idea how to hold and push DPS to skip key phases, oh and it was over 5 years ago. E4S Titan? Nearly 3 years ago and no, it don't agree that it was a particularly challenging fight either. Fatebreaker? Sure that's more recent but ehh the hardest part was right at the end and again, large parts of it could be skipped with gear.

People keep giving Alex some unrivaled amount of focus as if it was so incredibly difficult to do. Most of Alex difficulty was attributed to slightly more complicated game systems and an extremely novel playerbase with relatively no experience. Were talking about a playerbase that struggled to clear Steps of Faith and complained about it till they nerfed it 3x times. If Alex was released today with the current experienced playerbase, it would get stomped just as fast as a current tier savage, and Living Liquid in particular would go down just as fast as P3S at all player levels. No savage content from here on out will EVER take a week to clear, especially not a Tier 3 fight. To not understand that point is straight folly on anyone's part.

The toolbox strats, the marks, the ACT queues, were all huge items that didn't exist much at the time to oversimplify all of those mechanics. Hell when I had the chance to go back and do the BLU achievement, the strats available now diminished those fights even more than what was available at the time.

It shouldn't be murdering them like the endgame does, but it should at least give them an idea of what to expect IMO.

A great example of this was ARR's endgame dungeons and the way in which they snuck in baby training wheels versions of the Hardmode Primals that followed.

Meanwhile now we get dungeons where it's often best to flat out ignore the bulk of the fight and just beat the boss up. 24 man is even worse with zero reason to put in any effort or care beyond your own pride or OCD.

You REALLY reaching here. When was the last time you went into an ARR dungeon? They are all braindead the same as current ones. The ONLY dungeon that was truly dangerous was Aurum Vale (pre-change) and only really the first room because you can get roped into battles with other mobs mid pull. Nothing present in that dungeon prepares you for the EX's (of the time). You have a worse example when you go into post ARR dungeons. All of them are MORE easy than current ones. The second and third Nier raids destroy people left and right to this day. You don't need much reason for any 24-man nor is it a stepping stone for extremes or savages. It's simply not meant to be.

The only thing that has changed really, is the classes themselves and the balancing of them in relation to the content. Anyone's opinion can go either way on the subject. The forums would have you believe every change they make to a job is terrible, but the larger portion of the playerbase has welcomed most changes among every job.

[Deceptus]

Extremes are good stepping stones into savage. Specially the EW extremes, they are not very difficult.

These two statements conflict with each other. EX is supposed to be midcore content, how can they midcore if "they're not very difficult"? They need to be moderately difficult, not simply follow the Dorito.

[Havenchild]

None of those fights are remotely challenging to an Ultimate raider.

To be fair, Ultimate is tuned for the best of the best. The only piece of content that will be "difficult" to people who down ultimates is literally other ultimates. They have implemented challenging things before though. Like the title achievements to Palace and HoH. You could know how to execute around the RNG and still get played by a single bad GCD or Trap and ruin a whole run. Not alot of Ultimate raiders have that achievement. Perfect example of something that is difficult but people turn a blind eye to.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Would you be happier if instead I said heavily unnecessary and absolutely badly designed for the content the game has? Or you're gonna white knight that too like you do on every other post where people criticize the game despite the amount of proof supporting said critics?

There's the white knight comment. Been waiting for it. God forbid folks disagree or defend the game in ANY sort of way. That's against the rules here I guess. I've already stated NUMEROUS times the game could use work and isn't perfect. I just don't feel the game is on death row like some others do.
The term useless isn't an accurate statement by any means hence why I called it out (something being possible without doesn't mean that thing is useless), but I guess that's a crime too. The fact you resort to calling me a white knight simply because I'm not on the xiv hate train is sad.

I highly doubt YoshiP is gonna opt to listen to folks attacking their own community

[WaxSw]

There's the white knight comment. Been waiting for it. God forbid folks disagree or defend the game in ANY sort of way. That's against the rules here I guess. I've already stated NUMEROUS times the game could use work and isn't perfect. I just don't feel the game is on death row like some others do.
The term useless isn't an accurate statement by any means hence why I called it out (something being possible without doesn't mean that thing is useless), but I guess that's a crime too. The fact you resort to calling me a white knight simply because I'm not on the xiv hate train is sad.

I highly doubt YoshiP is gonna opt to listen to folks attacking their own community

I'm calling you a white knight not because the hate train or whatever but because your "arguments" for those critics are for the most part or answers that miss the point entirely or simply play them down either with sarcasm or with the "loud minority" argument. Your answers don't come as someone willling to discuss anything and/or give a valuable point of view to the matter or if not please tell me how:

Don't think you know what the word useless really means

or

Well the folks who have issues are just a loud minority. Can't imagine it ever having a huge impact

or

Then I have to ask...why not take your time and spend it there instead of complaining about the same thing here everyday? I'll never understand why folks spend so much time around things they don't like. You want xiv to change, you've said as such 100 times now. Move on to greener pastures

Provide anything of value to the discussions that were held.

[Sebazy]

People keep giving Alex some unrivaled amount of focus as if it was so incredibly difficult to do. Most of Alex difficulty was attributed to slightly more complicated game systems and an extremely novel playerbase with relatively no experience.

Eh, fights were faster paced, healing was much more reliant on cast times and there was plenty of janky mechanics that were ready to wipe you if you weren't absolutely on the ball. Even cheese mechanics such as Throttle haven't been seen again. Was it a cheap trick to inflate the difficulty of the fight? Sure. Sudo wasn't afraid to get dirty.

Sure it's fair to say that we were less experienced back then, but we were no less sharp. Whilst the scrubs were whining about Steps of Faith, the people I ran with were merrily 7 manning Coils, Thordan etc for sales without any of the modern day account sharing BS you see now.

The toolbox strats, the marks, the ACT queues, were all huge items that didn't exist much at the time to oversimplify all of those mechanics. Hell when I had the chance to go back and do the BLU achievement, the strats available now diminished those fights even more than what was available at the time.

Sure toolbox wasn't a thing, but that didn't stop the theory crafting and strategising. Solitude and Exordium's Strats were both things to behold. ACT trickery was every bit the thing back then too, the difference is that you couldn't just go and download a readymade solution for everything like you can today. You had to knuckle down and do it within your FC.

You REALLY reaching here. When was the last time you went into an ARR dungeon? They are all braindead the same as current ones. The ONLY dungeon that was truly dangerous was Aurum Vale (pre-change) and only really the first room because you can get roped into battles with other mobs mid pull. Nothing present in that dungeon prepares you for the EX's (of the time). You have a worse example when you go into post ARR dungeons. All of them are MORE easy than current ones. The second and third Nier raids destroy people left and right to this day. You don't need much reason for any 24-man nor is it a stepping stone for extremes or savages. It's simply not meant to be.

I think you're missing the point here sir. ARR dungeons aren't a challenge with today's toolkits and inflated ilvls. They absolutely were much more of a test than any dungeon we see today in so many different ways. Lets look at a few of the points I'm trying to refer to.

First off, Aurum Vale. Remember Coin Counter? Glower was the training wheels version of Landslide that shared a similar lack of a clear telegraph. The key difference being that it punished you with paralysis rather than trying to throw you off the side. He also cleaved his tank buster.

Next up, Demon Wall, remember doing that in ilvl 60-70 gear? The Bees were a serious threat and the dance had to be respected because healers couldn't sustain fools through the debuffs for long back then. I'd argue that the line dance further reinforced the notion that you needed to take ground markers seriously or you were going to die.

Lastly, Anantaboga. A honest to goodness Dungeon boss that would merrily one shot you if you tried to ignore mechanics and had a juicy enrage if you didn't have the damage. Hiding behind pillars to avoid a central 2hr style AoE in the middle? Don't forget Plague Dance, a mechanic that punished you for dropping it close to other players or statues. It was pretty much a more obvious version of Friction. Yep, Garuda says hi /

I whole heartedly agree on endgame dungeons beyond 2.1 though. SE lost their nerve on them after Pharos Sirius. The thing is, modern dungeons might well be more complex than what we used to see but does that complexity really amount to anything when you can simply ignore the vast majority of it right from release? Take Stigma-4. Let every single add self destruct, ignore the lot of them. It's the quickest way to clear. Meanwhile, simply ignoring adds back in 2.0 dungeons in relevant gear would get you overwhelmed and wiped sharpish. Because they actually did damage. Sure we get the occasional modern outlier such as PeaceKeeper, but bosses that will merrily one shot people who aren't paying attention irrespective of how much overheating their healer is willing to throw at them are a distant minority now.

Going back and trying them now isn't even remotely close to how they were in Darklight gear at best back in the day.

[IkaraGreydancer]

I'm calling you a white knight not because the hate train or whatever but because your "arguments" for those critics are for the most part or answers that miss the point entirely or simply play them down either with sarcasm or with the "loud minority" argument. Your answers don't come as someone willling to discuss anything and/or give a valuable point of view to the matter or if not please tell me how:



or


or



Provide anything of value to the discussions that were held.

Ah you cherry pick 3 things I've said but won't pull up other things that WOULD fit your criteria. The first one is to point out you're using the word useless falsely IMO. Call it what you want but the truth IS that it's a loud minority. Most people prefer to spend thier time playing rather than entertaining the echo chamber that's the OF.
And let's say those quotes don't "provide anything of value". How does that equal white knighting? At least TRY to be consistent and make sense dude.

I also love when you people call out sarcasm when it's folks who don't agree with you doing as such but it's never called out when folks you agree with do it. And if you feel I'm apparently down playing issues here I can rightfully say people are over blowing issues. 2 sides, same coin BUT ofc as I've seen folks say here before, it's ok for people to overblow issues. Either both are ok or neither are.

You may not like or agree with what I say but don't twist it in bad faith to prove a point.