In regards to something involving the main cast

[Luizgazen]

To be fair, Hermes could interact with the Elpis flower. But his suffering was just that deep, the kind of suffering the Ancients wouldn't have welcomed into their hearts. To interact with dynamis was to accept suffering, and that is what Venat seemingly tried to convince Ancients on, but failed. Whether knowledge on Meteion would've changed that, I don't know, but I feel like most Ancients would've resorted to trying to use dynamis as warfare and artillery through creation magics, and at that point even we didn't know what we would really face at Ultima Thule. Safe to say, just battle prowess meant very little.

Not really, there was no need to suffer to use dynamis at all, the WoL activated the elpis flower he\she got earlier in the story several times trought a variety of emotions, the main factor that prevents the ancients from using or even just detecting dynamis is their aether density, the WoL as sundered, and thus much less dense, could actually affect end be affected by it... but then again, none of the expert researchers in Elpis could diffenrentiate the WoL from a familiar, so they could just use some

[Alleo]

Where are you getting this logic of they knew no suffering in the days of old?

Also in regards to the whole,we were the only one able to find Meteion etc etc....no, just no. You seem to forget Venat literally put a tracker on her lmao.

I mean we had a cutscene with Venat where bascially a group of Ancients talked to Zodiark, wanting the old days back where they knew nothing but bliss. Its in their own words. It does not mean that all Ancients never suffered from anything but never in a way that they had in that moment.

Hermes himself told us that they are not able to use Dynamis which is why he created Meteion. They simply are too dense in aether. This was later shown again when Meteion tried to run away and the only reason we found her was because we as a sundered could understand her. The ability to use LB in a trust dungeon could simply be a mistake. Or maybe they have their own form of that.

They also did not have to forget it....just accept that it had happened and continue to live on. What they wanted to was to forget it and go back to their paradise which bascially meant that they would go that way again.

Again with Meteion I meant in Elpis...you know the part where she did not want to tell us the truth after she bascially got black eyes? Where even Hythlos sight could not spot her because she used her Dynamis power to become invisible? If it was not for us they would have never even knew where to start their search because we were the only one that could hear her.

And still how would the Ancients fight her then?

They themselves could not go there because they were too dense to even use Dynamis (unlike us which is why Thancred and the others were able to form the space).

Then you have the solution of sundering a few ancients: Now you suddenly have people that have to come to terms with their changed forms...with being mortal and with having no Creation magics. So you would need a big enough group that wants to do it AND are able to still fight without their creation magics. And these must also be able to reach Meteion.

Or you can create familiars which you send there: Now these Familiars need to be sentient enough to understand what they have to do, willing enough to go through the end (because without Azem crystal the scions would have died) and strongh enough to defeat Meteion.

Edit:

Dang it...why I am even discussing that topic. x) Will really be my last post on that.

[Cleretic]

Vent seemed to believe her people were incapable of meaningfully interacting with dynamis so you should probably take up your headcanons about limit breaks with her.

People saw the Endsinger calling out about dynamis once when we cracked out an LB3 and took that to mean that dynamis was responsible for every single LB we've ever seen, including the ones that the Ancient Trusts had entirely for balance reasons. The notion that Emet-Selch might just have a means to shoot bigger fireballs sometimes is apparently just not possible and is just clear proof that Venat and Only Dynamis Expert We Ever Met Hermes are completely wrong and the Ancients totally could've handled dynamis just A-OK 100% fine.

[KariTheFox]

The frustrating thing about this conversation is that I will do simple things like try to explain character motivation or the perspective of Venat - and everyone who does that gets painted with the broad brush of 'supporting the sundering and therefore supporting genocide. I don't "support" or condemn the sundering because it's so abstract and far removed from what any person could actually experience. And it's ultimately just a creation myth to explain why there is suffering in the world.

You might as well have an opinion about whether or not you support Prometheus stealing fire from the gods, or Eve eating the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

[Cleretic]

The frustrating thing about this conversation is that I will do simple things like try to explain character motivation or the perspective of Venat - and everyone who does that gets painted with the broad brush of 'supporting the sundering and therefore supporting genocide. I don't "support" or condemn the sundering because it's so abstract and far removed from what any person could actually experience. And it's ultimately just a creation myth to explain why there is suffering in the world.

You might as well have an opinion about whether or not you support Prometheus stealing fire from the gods, or Eve eating the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Just give up. They've been having this argument for months with exactly these same terrible tactics, making en echo chamber by driving away everyone else.

[Theodric]

I mean we had a cutscene with Venat where bascially a group of Ancients talked to Zodiark, wanting the old days back where they knew nothing but bliss. Its in their own words. It does not mean that all Ancients never suffered from anything but never in a way that they had in that moment.

The same cutscene that isn't meant to be taken at face value as an authentic retelling of the events? That conveniently made a caricature of those in opposition to some strange, incredibly unhinged woman standing by idly and allowing the apocalypse to occur only to then go on and slaughter the survivors with a cruel act of genocide because they didn't react the way she wanted to something she refused to explain?

I know it might be a shocking revelation for some, but nobody is obligated to just roll over and die for whoever sheds some tears or bats their eyelids in their direction. That goes for the Sundered as much as the Unsundered as well as humanity as it exists in our world.

We already know that the Scions wouldn't just allow the destruction of Ishgard or Limsa Lominsa in order to prove a point. They didn't even allow such a fate to befall Garlemald despite being bitter enemies - so with that in mind, the way in which Venat is handled is just straight up bizarre.

Though one needs only look at World of Warcraft to see that Venat is given similar treatment to Sylvanas. The only real difference is that the development team here actually allowed Venat to not only die but have no possibility of being reborn rather than come up with a contrived reason to keep her around.

I have to give them credit for that much, at least. It strikes me as a fitting end for such a character. It was a beautiful moment.

Just give up. They've been having this argument for months with exactly these same terrible tactics, making en echo chamber by driving away everyone else.

Huh? That's revisionism. Anyone who spoke up in favour of the Garleans or the Ascians was actively driven away from this place for almost a decade - as any honest long term poster can attest. To the point of being called 'genocide supporters', sent death threats, told they 'didn't understand the lore' when they provided lore sources. Then, mysteriously, when there's the slightest bit of doubt cast in Venat's direction all hell breaks loose.

[EaraGrace]

The frustrating thing about this conversation is that I will do simple things like try to explain character motivation or the perspective of Venat - and everyone who does that gets painted with the broad brush of 'supporting the sundering and therefore supporting genocide. I don't "support" or condemn the sundering because it's so abstract and far removed from what any person could actually experience. And it's ultimately just a creation myth to explain why there is suffering in the world.

You might as well have an opinion about whether or not you support Prometheus stealing fire from the gods, or Eve eating the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Partially my fault I think. They’ve gotten so used to me arguing with them they assume everyone who disagrees is just like me. Kind of funny in an ironic sort of way.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

You mean the scene that is very objectively flawed because it’s not even the proper retelling of events in the order that they happen in? Also again, them asking for their “perfect paradise” back doesn’t mean much when they were currently in the final days itself. Anything would look perfect and a world of bliss if it didn’t have the final days occurring in it lol. Also again, Venat has a tracker on her, she knows where Meteion is. The only obstacle is getting to UT, in which dynamis controlling constructs could easily make it there. So basically…there are other options.

Let me ask you all this then, because there seems to be different aspects going on. If the sundering was the only way forward, then why would Venat even go up to her people and tell them they need to accept suffering etc. Let me ask, what would have happened if they accepted? If they accepted suffering and accepted her etc. What would she do then? According to you the sundering is the only solution so what would she do in this scenario where they agreed with her? She’s still sunder them? Then what was the point of her supposedly addressing them?

Just give up. They've been having this argument for months with exactly these same terrible tactics, making en echo chamber by driving away everyone else.

This is pretty disingenuous. Telling someone to basically stop posting because people are having a debate. Also..."terrible tactics?" If theyre so terrible why do you struggle to refute them so much then?

[Cleretic]

Huh? That's revisionism. Anyone who spoke up in favour of the Garleans or the Ascians was actively driven away from this place for almost a decade - as any honest long term poster can attest. To the point of being called 'genocide supporters', sent death threats, told they 'didn't understand the lore' when they provided lore sources. Then, mysteriously, when there's the slightest bit of doubt cast in Venat's direction all hell breaks loose.

No they didn't. I know that because you're here. And I know you've been here for rather a while, because whenever I look up stuff about the game and end up with a forum thread, you're usually in them no matter how many years old they are.

[Lauront]

Just give up. They've been having this argument for months with exactly these same terrible tactics, making en echo chamber by driving away everyone else.