In regards to something involving the main cast

[KizuyaKatogami]

The ancients never learned what hit them, they only knew that the aether currents were stagnating, and so created Zodiark to fix that... they were only treating the symptoms without curing the disease, if Venat had told what she knew they probably could have solved the problem, maybe sent a hit squad of powerful familiars to follow Venat's beacon and defeat meteion like she sent a hit squad of sundered after millenia of meteion getting stronger

Precisely this. It’s the hypocrisy that gets to me too. “You must have hope.” Yet she didn’t have hope in her own people and didn’t believe in them, and then makes us crazy scenarios in her head to justify her actions lol.

[Alleo]

So now we’re just back to the ancients didn’t suffer enough? The ancients literally suffered through the final days and were able to survive through it. Their final days was also immensely worse than the sundered final days were…so they clearly suffered more overall. Also, outside of the crystal braves incident which idk if you’d even count that, how exactly did Alphinaud suffer? Urianger was what….moenbryda? lol. So if it takes just losing one person and dealing with that to be able to combat Meteion i’d say the ancients would fare just fine.

And yet them being able to withstand despair was only one part. The Ancients simply could not interact with Dynamis at all. We were the only one in Elpis able to find Meteion because we could hear her. So what should they have done then?

Also as we know, many survivors did not deal with suffering very well. Honestly we would not even have this story if they did because they would just live under Zodiarks protection, moving on from that catastrophy without the need to go back to the days of old, where they knew no suffering. Without any further sacrifices. It was only when they tried to bring back the people that sacrificed themselves by sacrificing even more did Venat and her group step up. She did not go against Zodiark itself, did not stop the second round of sacrifices because these were all understandable actions of people that wanted to save their star.

They could have rebuilt. If they just did that, Hydealyn would not exist. They would not be sundered. Because they understood what had happened and even if it pained them they could move on.

Also sure the sundered being turned into the beasts themselves and losing their soul too is not so bad...why cant both be the same kind of bad?

[KizuyaKatogami]

And yet them being able to withstand despair was only one part. The Ancients simply could not interact with Dynamis at all. We were the only one in Elpis able to find Meteion because we could hear her. So what should they have done then?

Also as we know, many survivors did not deal with suffering very well. Honestly we would not even have this story if they did because they would just live under Zodiarks protection, moving on from that catastrophy without the need to go back to the days of old, where they knew no suffering. Without any further sacrifices. It was only when they tried to bring back the people that sacrificed themselves by sacrificing even more did Venat and her group step up. She did not go against Zodiark itself, did not stop the second round of sacrifices because these were all understandable actions of people that wanted to save their star.

They could have rebuilt. If they just did that, Hydealyn would not exist. They would not be sundered. Because they understood what had happened and even if it pained them they could move on.

Also sure the sundered being turned into the beasts themselves and losing their soul too is not so bad...why cant both be the same kind of bad?

Where are you getting this logic of they knew no suffering in the days of old? This is factually untrue. I’m also not sure where we’re getting they couldn’t interact with dynamis at all. They could create beings that could. They use limit breaks which are in a grey area on whether they’re dynamis or not but according to Meteion they basically are and we see 3 ancients(4 if you count elidibus) use them frequently. If Venat had told them the truth they perhaps could have combatted Meteion, that’s the problem with this whole thing, she lied and kept the truth from them.According to the codex Zodiark was just an Ill fated wish overall, which is pretty humorous when you remember were it not for him Venat’s entire plan would fall apart.

The ancient final days was literally seared onto their souls. They couldn’t forget the final days if they wanted to, we are told this.

Also in regards to the whole,we were the only one able to find Meteion etc etc....no, just no. You seem to forget Venat literally put a tracker on her lmao.

[Tehmon]

And yet them being able to withstand despair was only one part. The Ancients simply could not interact with Dynamis at all. We were the only one in Elpis able to find Meteion because we could hear her. So what should they have done then?

To be fair, Hermes could interact with the Elpis flower. But his suffering was just that deep, the kind of suffering the Ancients wouldn't have welcomed into their hearts. To interact with dynamis was to accept suffering, and that is what Venat seemingly tried to convince Ancients on, but failed. Whether knowledge on Meteion would've changed that, I don't know, but I feel like most Ancients would've resorted to trying to use dynamis as warfare and artillery through creation magics, and at that point even we didn't know what we would really face at Ultima Thule. Safe to say, just battle prowess meant very little.

[KariTheFox]

So now we’re just back to the ancients didn’t suffer enough? The ancients literally suffered through the final days and were able to survive through it. Their final days was also immensely worse than the sundered final days were…so they clearly suffered more overall. Also, outside of the crystal braves incident which idk if you’d even count that, how exactly did Alphinaud suffer? Urianger was what….moenbryda? lol. So if it takes just losing one person and dealing with that to be able to combat Meteion i’d say the ancients would fare just fine.

You asked a specific question "why wouldn't making a small numbered of sundered work" - and I gave you an answer to that question.

I did not make a comment about how the ancients deserved thier fate. Or whether or not thier suffering was equivalent to that of the sundered.

You need two things to combat dynamis fueled despair - the ability to interact with dynamis at all, and a life of experiences to draw on in order to fight Meteion on an emotional level. The ancients lack the former, and familiars or selectively engineered sundered people would lack the latter.

You can only have someone with both by doing a sundering, and letting the sundered people grow and live in an imperfect world.

[Cleretic]

Great, this thread's poisoned by the same ongoing 'Venat is the monovillain' browbeating faux-argument too. I thought it was quarantined at this point.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You asked a specific question "why wouldn't making a small numbered of sundered work" - and I gave you an answer to that question.

I did not make a comment about how the ancients deserved thier fate. Or whether or not thier suffering was equivalent to that of the sundered.

You need two things to combat dynamis fueled despair - the ability to interact with dynamic at all, and a life of experiences to draw on in order to fight Meteion on an emotional level. The ancients lack the former, and familiars or selectively engineered sundered people would lack the latter.

You can only have someone with both by doing a sundering, and letting the sundered people grow and live in an imperfect world.

And…they had lives of experience. Look at erichthonios. Having to grieve for his mother and trying to gain the attention and admiration of his father. The ancients were people, they had life experiences, just because we may not see exactly that in the INCREDIBLY brief time we go there doesn’t change that. You can’t only have someone with both with a sundering lol. I mean again, dynamis is incredibly hinted to be tied to limit breaks, and we see 3 unsundered use limit breaks. They very clearly could interact with dynamis, and even if it took time for them as a people to hone that power then so be it.

[Theodric]

The suggestion that the Ancients 'needed' to be subjected to genocide because they supposedly couldn't interact with Dynamis directly will never not unsettle me. Especially when coming from posters who have spent years insisting that no matter how sympathetic a character or faction's motives may be, nothing whatsoever justifies a campaign of genocide.

How interesting that this supposed red line in the sand shifted the moment it was revealed that Sundering was not only a deliberate act on Venat's part but also that she stood by and allowed the Final Days to happen despite having having knowledge of their approach.

Certainly, the Scions never decide to not inform people that the Final Days are making a return. One of the first things they themselves do is reach out to the various leader figures that have the ear of and explain what is about to happen and how they can be mitigated. All in all, a stark contrast to how Venat chose to go about things.

Which is odd, because it's a safe bet that if Merlwyb decided to 'test' the people of Limsa Lominsa by not informing them of the approach of the Final Days to see how they would fare, it would very likely be called out by the Scions as a cruel and callous stance.

On that basis, I'm certainly not giving Venat a free pass. Especially when she's presented as a villain in all but name only in the eyes of many - myself included.

Some people will agree, others will disagree. I see little point in trying to force everyone to take the same side since nobody is obligated to like, dislike or support specific characters in the first place. Especially when they're just pixels on a screen at the end of the day.

[KariTheFox]

And…they had lives of experience. Look at erichthonios. Having to grieve for his mother and trying to gain the attention and admiration of his father. The ancients were people, they had life experiences, just because we may not see exactly that in the INCREDIBLY brief time we go there doesn’t change that. You can’t only have someone with both with a sundering lol. I mean again, dynamis is incredibly hinted to be tied to limit breaks, and we see 3 unsundered use limit breaks. They very clearly could interact with dynamis, and even if it took time for them as a people to hone that power then so be it.

Venat seemed to believe her people were incapable of meaningfully interacting with dynamis so you should probably take up your headcanons about limit breaks with her.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Vent seemed to believe her people were incapable of meaningfully interacting with dynamis so you should probably take up your headcanons about limit breaks with her.

Dunno how it’s headcanon when it’s heavily implied by Meteion herself but okay. I mean this is coming from the lady who literally made up an entire headcanon pity walk of shame.