In regards to something involving the main cast

[EaraGrace]

Oh i don’t understand but you do right? In your various posts trying to dig deep and bash them for the same things the sundered do but far worse. What does returning to the star being seen as beautiful have to do with their view on creations?

Because if the reason why you exist is tied to a specific goal, and you fulfill that, then what reason do you have for living? When you view everything as having an explicit purpose how does that impact your view of others? When the Okyupetes completed testing do you think they’d care about whether they lived or died? If they were failures no they wouldn’t because we’ve seen how they treat failures, if they were successes they’d care right up until the moment they reproduced.

You’re literally trying to argue they had no funeral rites when it’s explicitly stated with supporting dialogue that they did, and the only thing the WoL contributed was the flowers.

I don’t view throwing bodies in the compost heap as funeral rites. You got me there.

You and others are specifically ignoring this proof when given and still trying to dig into every nook and cranny looking for something to prove that they’re “wrong.”

Isn’t it a good thing to think about these things? Isn’t that what you’ve argued in the past, that we should look at the game deeply? Why is it that suddenly a problem here?

In the end though, either conclusion doesn’t matter in the long run because i don’t see the ancients tearing apart and spilling blood for sport and entertainment for rich folk. We can see that happening in Uldah though, and i don’t see anyone there offering prayer.

Whataboutism.

This isn’t about whether one side is morally right or wrong, but about whether one is capable of change or not. The Ancients built a god to prevent change. It’d be like after Bahamut was defeated Ul’Dah kept Nald’thal around to protect their monarchy.

[Rulakir]

Wow. Some of these replies are so disingenuous. At least the masks are off now for all to see.

[sidurgu-12]

Wow. Some of these replies are so disingenuous. At least the masks are off now for all to see.

there havent been masks for a while. for both sides.

edit: i mean the thread itself was made to say theres a double standard going on because of yshtolas nixies.

[Skyborne]

The original topic was "why is it fine for the Sundered to do similar things?"

I don't really fully buy the 'power level' thing personally... a chihuahua biting you does less damage than a pitbull, but I don't find either acceptable. Even if the dog can somehow end the universe by mauling my face and the other can't.

The sundered are also not totally weak and helpless, more than capable of impressive feats like building (and then dropping down) an artificial moon... among other things. The whole Ultima Thule thing, and the Sharlayans looking to explore space where Dynamis is at its strongest also makes me wonder. Creation magics were pretty volatile... but literal feely magic that goes by the rule of cool in space? Being overwhelmed by emotion and transforming into a beast (which I believe is still possible as of 6.1 unless I'm wrong)?

Could be pretty bad if the wrong person gets the wrong idea and decides to master this... though I doubt we're ever going to do anything in the Sea of Stars again so it's just speculation. Could make for a cool story.

There is, however, a tear into a hell-dimension... thankfully, we have the WoL to go full Doomguy, so surely, nothing will go wrong, right?

[Rulakir]

there havent been masks for a while. for both sides.

Respectfully disagree. This is how the last few pages have gone:

NPC: "And then I partook of the most delicious peach!"
Lore poster #1: There was no mention of peaches anywhere in that dialog.
Lore poster #2: It doesn't say NPC ate the peach.
Lore poster #3: I don't respect anyone who trashes fruit like that.
Me: WTF?!

I've known good faith arguments weren't happening here for months, but this is whole other level.

[Kozh]

Truthfully, I think you fundamentally don’t understand the Ancients and their thinking.

At least we understand them better than you do uwu

My issue however, is that does give rise to certain problems.

A problem that only arise because you use your standard to judge a race that have different custom and life compared to us mortal?

And you accused us for being bias. What a joke.

[Theodric]

I wouldn't consider Kozh's post to be obnoxious. Calling someone out for saying 'yOu DoN't UnDeRsTaNd ThE aNcIeNtS' strikes me as far more fitting for such a term to be used.

As has been pointed out many times, it's perfectly acceptable for people to agree to disagree when it comes to the more nuanced aspects of the game's setting. Certainly, I wouldn't consider anyone posting in this thread to be the supreme authority on something as complicated and open ended as the subject of morality.

[EaraGrace]

I wouldn't consider Kozh's post to be obnoxious. Calling someone out for saying 'yOu DoN't UnDeRsTaNd ThE aNcIeNtS' strikes me as far more fitting for such a term to be used.

I will firmly stand beside my position that not incorporating Hermes statements/feelings on Ancient society, as well as ignoring the dialogue about how they view lives that succeed in their “purpose” vs. lives that don’t, will lead you to fundamentally misunderstanding what the narrative is trying to say about the Ancients. The story focuses on that for a reason and many people in this thread are rightfully bringing it up.

Certainly, I wouldn't consider anyone posting in this thread to be the supreme authority on something as complicated and open ended as the subject of morality.

I’m really glad I didn’t do that and said explicitly

This isn’t about whether one side is morally right or wrong

Yeah, which has always been my point. There inherently stronger in magic but that's it. In every other way there just like the Sundered. There are people in Elpis who really are very kind, there are people there bordering on cruel. It literally varies by side quest.

People are people, and that can be statement full of optimism or pessimism.

[Theodric]

I daresay some of us simply don't believe that a society necessarily needs to make sweeping changes each and every time some spiteful saboteur decides to have a breakdown. As has been pointed out many times already, the Ancients weren't incapable of change or taking new ideas into account. It's simply a case where both Hermes and Venat decided to write them off and set off the equivalent of a nuke instead of making any real effort to be open and honest.

My own stance has always consistently been that I believe that the Unsundered had every right to do whatever possible in order to preserve and continue their society and species, though so too did the Sundered. As such, as was the case in Shadowbringers it was nothing more than a clash of like-wills and was even presented as such in the narrative.

Neither side would back down and roll over - for obvious reasons - and so it was inevitable that one side would be wiped out. Then Endwalker swung around and resorted to deceptive caricatures that reduced the complexities of character motives and stripped agency from pretty much everyone (Venat included) in order to try and frame Venat as being responsible for absolutely everything that happened. Right down to being the one who allowed Emet to escape the Sundering.

Though this has been discussed at length many times already and I think it's fine for people to have different takes on the subject.

[MikkoAkure]

I think that's rather disingenuous framing given the numerous side quests showing that many of the Ancients throughout Elpis cared for their creations. Even in cases where Ancients believed the player character was little more than a familiar there's multiple examples of Ancients expressing concern about the player character's aether and even offering to fortify it.

And as I've said repeatedly, there's others who don't care like the Ancient who pits us against his concepts over and over to test them and says nothing of their deaths except "interesting" and cheers against us, expecting us to die against his latest monster.

Despite how much they all try to be the same and hide their differences behind masks and robes, the Ancients are not cut from the same cloth and are not a monolith. Just because some of them have a funeral for dead concepts doesn't mean their society as a whole is absolved of anything bad they've done and it's not like it matters either. The Ancients as a whole are interesting, but they don't need to be "pure" in order for you to like them. The Ancients are not the perfect people others pretend they are and they were not written to be that way either. The fact the writers named their city and a character from a 500 year old book about a falsely idyllic paradise says as much.

I think the thing that's the most telling in all of this is that no one here cared about familiars either until Y'shtola created 2 of them and sent them to the Void. The nixies are no different from carbuncles. Both are familiars, both are made out of nothing but aether, both can be dismissed and turn into nothingness. I wonder if you guys would still be upset if she sent carbuncles into the void since they're familiars that we're more familiar with and used to seeing being sent into combat.