In regards to something involving the main cast

[sidurgu-12]

Wow. Some of these replies are so disingenuous. At least the masks are off now for all to see.

there havent been masks for a while. for both sides.

edit: i mean the thread itself was made to say theres a double standard going on because of yshtolas nixies.

[Rulakir]

there havent been masks for a while. for both sides.

Respectfully disagree. This is how the last few pages have gone:

NPC: "And then I partook of the most delicious peach!"
Lore poster #1: There was no mention of peaches anywhere in that dialog.
Lore poster #2: It doesn't say NPC ate the peach.
Lore poster #3: I don't respect anyone who trashes fruit like that.
Me: WTF?!

I've known good faith arguments weren't happening here for months, but this is whole other level.

[Skyborne]

The original topic was "why is it fine for the Sundered to do similar things?"

I don't really fully buy the 'power level' thing personally... a chihuahua biting you does less damage than a pitbull, but I don't find either acceptable. Even if the dog can somehow end the universe by mauling my face and the other can't.

The sundered are also not totally weak and helpless, more than capable of impressive feats like building (and then dropping down) an artificial moon... among other things. The whole Ultima Thule thing, and the Sharlayans looking to explore space where Dynamis is at its strongest also makes me wonder. Creation magics were pretty volatile... but literal feely magic that goes by the rule of cool in space? Being overwhelmed by emotion and transforming into a beast (which I believe is still possible as of 6.1 unless I'm wrong)?

Could be pretty bad if the wrong person gets the wrong idea and decides to master this... though I doubt we're ever going to do anything in the Sea of Stars again so it's just speculation. Could make for a cool story.

There is, however, a tear into a hell-dimension... thankfully, we have the WoL to go full Doomguy, so surely, nothing will go wrong, right?

[Alleo]

The original topic was "why is it fine for the Sundered to do similar things?"

And the examples are not really comparable because even if we are not completely weak and helpless we are still much below the power of the Ancient. We need to kill and harvest animals because we cant just simply create the things we need to live out of thin air. The Ancients can do that. So much that even growing your own food is seen as something strange. So of course WE would need to kill things and yet still can be surprised when the Ancients do that because they dont have to do it.

We are part of the Circle of life and many people died to beasts. The Ancients are normally not. They create all these really dangerous creatures but wont be the ones that really have to live with them.

And they create being with bones and blood that bascially can get souls and still delete them from existence when they dont like their design while Ysthola sent a purely magical construct (which is not alive) into the void and still cared about them in some ways.

Edit:

And to make it clear: I do like the Ancients. I really enjoyed my time in Elpis. I dont believe that they are horrible people that deserved their fate, but I also dont put them higher up than the people living now. They are us but more powerful and seemingly might have seen anything below them as not worth their time (seeing how Emet and Hthylo called us an it, how even others reacted to us and how the Ascians threated the sundered). It does not make them evil but flawed people.

I do understand Hermes view but I also dont agree with his solution at the end. (Which showed how crazy he has become since Meteion would also bring death to all the innocent creations)

I just dont get the need to compare their actions to the main cast. The main casts also has their flaws because they are also not perfect people. I have no problems with someone bringing up their flaws either. But I dont get why some actions that are different because of how we are, should be counted as equal.

[Kozh]

Truthfully, I think you fundamentally don’t understand the Ancients and their thinking.

At least we understand them better than you do uwu

My issue however, is that does give rise to certain problems.

A problem that only arise because you use your standard to judge a race that have different custom and life compared to us mortal?

And you accused us for being bias. What a joke.

[Theodric]

I wouldn't consider Kozh's post to be obnoxious. Calling someone out for saying 'yOu DoN't UnDeRsTaNd ThE aNcIeNtS' strikes me as far more fitting for such a term to be used.

As has been pointed out many times, it's perfectly acceptable for people to agree to disagree when it comes to the more nuanced aspects of the game's setting. Certainly, I wouldn't consider anyone posting in this thread to be the supreme authority on something as complicated and open ended as the subject of morality.

[EaraGrace]

I wouldn't consider Kozh's post to be obnoxious. Calling someone out for saying 'yOu DoN't UnDeRsTaNd ThE aNcIeNtS' strikes me as far more fitting for such a term to be used.

I will firmly stand beside my position that not incorporating Hermes statements/feelings on Ancient society, as well as ignoring the dialogue about how they view lives that succeed in their “purpose” vs. lives that don’t, will lead you to fundamentally misunderstanding what the narrative is trying to say about the Ancients. The story focuses on that for a reason and many people in this thread are rightfully bringing it up.

Certainly, I wouldn't consider anyone posting in this thread to be the supreme authority on something as complicated and open ended as the subject of morality.

I’m really glad I didn’t do that and said explicitly

This isn’t about whether one side is morally right or wrong

Yeah, which has always been my point. There inherently stronger in magic but that's it. In every other way there just like the Sundered. There are people in Elpis who really are very kind, there are people there bordering on cruel. It literally varies by side quest.

People are people, and that can be statement full of optimism or pessimism.

[Theodric]

I daresay some of us simply don't believe that a society necessarily needs to make sweeping changes each and every time some spiteful saboteur decides to have a breakdown. As has been pointed out many times already, the Ancients weren't incapable of change or taking new ideas into account. It's simply a case where both Hermes and Venat decided to write them off and set off the equivalent of a nuke instead of making any real effort to be open and honest.

My own stance has always consistently been that I believe that the Unsundered had every right to do whatever possible in order to preserve and continue their society and species, though so too did the Sundered. As such, as was the case in Shadowbringers it was nothing more than a clash of like-wills and was even presented as such in the narrative.

Neither side would back down and roll over - for obvious reasons - and so it was inevitable that one side would be wiped out. Then Endwalker swung around and resorted to deceptive caricatures that reduced the complexities of character motives and stripped agency from pretty much everyone (Venat included) in order to try and frame Venat as being responsible for absolutely everything that happened. Right down to being the one who allowed Emet to escape the Sundering.

Though this has been discussed at length many times already and I think it's fine for people to have different takes on the subject.

[Theodric]

The argument isn't that the Ancients were perfect so much as they didn't deserve to have some deluded nutter waltz in, inflict genocide upon them, declare herself to be a 'supreme deity' and then try to stifle all memory of their existence.

I don't care about the 'moral' stuff, it's a video game at the end of the day. Not the real world. I just like and desire consistency. If a game's story is going to fill my screen with lengthy sophistry fuelled rants from characters that are given every possible advantage in order to succeed then I'd rather not see the game apply its supposed 'rules' across the board and not hide the actual consequences of the likes of the Sundering behind feel good, fluffy language.

[Cleretic]

The argument isn't that the Ancients were perfect so much as they didn't deserve to have some deluded nutter waltz in, inflict genocide upon them, declare herself to be a 'supreme deity' and then try to stifle all memory of their existence.

Yeah, Nym, Mhach, Meracydia and Bozja didn't deserve what happened to them.

Wait, what was your point?