Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Firstly, gathering all these threads together is quite a bit of work.
So I'm grateful for your efforts.



Secondly, even though I haven't gotten to try these changes myself...

Samurai is the class I spent the most effort learning.
And from the criticism seen here, I can understand the impact being discussed.

I have to agree, many of these changes seem bad for the class.

[cjbeagle]

I haven't gotten to try these changes myself...

If you do decide to try them out yourself, please consider following up with your thoughts.

I knew I'd hate these changes as soon as I saw them on paper, but once I tried them out in game I was shocked at how much worse they were than I ever imagined.

[Edweena]

If you do decide to try them out yourself, please consider following up with your thoughts.

I knew I'd hate these changes as soon as I saw them on paper, but once I tried them out in game I was shocked at how much worse they were than I ever imagined.

They're especially worse since there's at least 3 things they could have done INSTEAD OF removing Kaiten, nvm the Tenka Goken issue.

Merge Shoha 1 & 2, give it the Spirits Within is upgraded into Expiacion like they did with Paladin at the start of EW. An easy solution that already exists.

Have ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri upon execution, like High Jump into Mirage Dive introduced THIS PATCH, or the Gnashing Fang combo introduced at the start of EW. Another easy solution that ALREADY EXISTS.

Lots of people jump right onto merging Hissatu: Guren / Senei which is good, but....

Is just a better solution (removes 2 buttons instead of 1, while we retain both abilities as well) since Warrior has done exactly this with Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos (the equivalent 1 target spender of shinten / senei) / Decimate into Chaotic Cyclone (another equivalent 3+= target spender that can be compared to kyuten / guren) while under the effects of Nascent Chaos, a buff granted along many other things when using Inner Release. They even have their own fucking Ogi Namikiri tied to the CD, PRIMAL REND.
SE just gave us Inner Release but somehow WORSE since we have the Ogi Namikiri being tied to Ikishoten (Like Primal Rend needing to be tied to Inner Release you see what I mean?) but miss out on saving two buttons as Guren and Senei insist on being their own CD for literally no reason.
It's been designed to be outdated for two expansions now (as someone who started in SHB I assume Inner Release was a SHB ability) and if they somehow decide to merge Guren and Senei instead I'll be frankly dissapointed since it's such a lazy effort, especially when their fellow job designers already have offered a solution to the same problems.

Oh and this Guren and Senei change would actually reduce the skill floor btw, since it removes the possibility for Guren and Senei to drift as CD's, which is ONLY a skill floor issue, and is not going to affect those at the ceiling since well, reducing drifting is not a skill attained at the ceiling.

Also no Kaiten's removal does not reduce APM, the 5 kenki cost difference is negligible, and our opener is not crowded by any means in comparison to many jobs so the only reason to remove Kaiten is for futureproofing job changes we may not see until 7.0 lol and "button bloat" which I have already solved in much better ways.

It's so frustrating looking at other jobs in the same game and how they fixed issues before they even appeared like holy shit.

[Edweena]

And yeah Tenka Goken is a real bite in the ass since they just introduced an option for actions to automatically acquire a target when using said actions, which would have been great for the "problem" of Tenka Goken previously requiring a target as it was a cone AOE.
Now we're stuck running into an intersection being asked to stand in place and hope we don't get run over by everything going on, instead of safely casting from the sidewalk of the cone aoe previously, all for the sake of "smoothing it out" and "not requiring a target" which is apparently good?

[Quor]

And yeah Tenka Goken is a real bite in the ass since they just introduced an option for actions to automatically acquire a target when using said actions, which would have been great for the "problem" of Tenka Goken previously requiring a target as it was a cone AOE.
Now we're stuck running into an intersection being asked to stand in place and hope we don't get run over by everything going on, instead of safely casting from the sidewalk of the cone aoe previously, all for the sake of "smoothing it out" and "not requiring a target" which is apparently good?

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the changes to SAM in this patch feel half-baked at best. None of the reasoning makes sense, and this makes me think that whoever was responsible for it is either a rank newbie or otherwise completely disconnected from any actual gameplay involving SAM. A total theorycrafter who did the equivalent of looking at spreadsheets and making decisions by committee without actually trying the changes in a real game environment, much less considering how actual SAM players would feel.

Neither is a good look. I could forgive a complete newbie; roll back the changes, chalk it up to experience and make sure the newbie knows to get real experience with a job before they go mucking about with it. Still shouldn't have been approved for patch release by the higher-ups though. If it's the other one though? Then there is a dire need for an internal audit of the job balance team to ensure that decisions are being made with regards to how actual gameplay feels instead of simply through this spreadsheet/paint by numbers approach.

[Edweena]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the changes to SAM in this patch feel half-baked at best. None of the reasoning makes sense, and this makes me think that whoever was responsible for it is either a rank newbie or otherwise completely disconnected from any actual gameplay involving SAM. A total theorycrafter who did the equivalent of looking at spreadsheets and making decisions by committee without actually trying the changes in a real game environment, much less considering how actual SAM players would feel.

Neither is a good look. I could forgive a complete newbie; roll back the changes, chalk it up to experience and make sure the newbie knows to get real experience with a job before they go mucking about with it. Still shouldn't have been approved for patch release by the higher-ups though. If it's the other one though? Then there is a dire need for an internal audit of the job balance team to ensure that decisions are being made with regards to how actual gameplay feels instead of simply through this spreadsheet/paint by numbers approach.

At this point I'm convinced it's a decision for some out of touch future proofing, that should be saved for 6.5/7.0

If they wanted to remove Kaiten and make larger overall changes, they should have saved Kaiten's removal for 6.5, and give us the new stuff shortly after in 7.0 while introducing real QOL and skill floor solutions (during 6.1-6.4) like the ones I've suggested.
Warm us up to change like they did with QOL changes on Monk throughout SHB, then make real changes at the next expansion. No one would be unhappy for the early patch cycles, and it would build up trust for a change like Kaiten's removal.
As it is currently it's hard to trust the direction of Samurai's design as it clearly offers nothing in place of 6.0 (every "positive" change is contentious from potencies, crit synergy, to tenka goken, nothing offers a pure improvement in place of what we had before).

Going potentially 5 patch cycles without Kaiten (which is unlikely imo due to feedback) aka 2 years after many locked Samurai in as their main during the 6.0 cycle is beyond ridiculous.
Oh and yes please revert 6.1 Samurai changes thank you.

[Silnoa]

I think you have the right of it. From what I've read on this, it sounds like Kaiten was difficult for them to design around, but there isn't a lot of detail on why exactly. If you look at these changes through that lens, it makes sense that a primary goal of these changes was to remove Kaiten. I suspect that the devs locked in on removing Kaiten early in the process and that explains why they did not do some of the button merging ideas players have suggested as alternatives that would be more aimed at reducing button bloat. Essentially, button bloat was not the problem the devs were trying to solve.

What I'm unclear on is what the nature of their "restriction" with Kaiten was. Was it just causing problems for patch to patch balancing or was more of a difficulty when trying to make changes for major expansions (like adding new actions). If it was the latter, I 100% agree that they should have waited until 7.0 to remove Kaiten.

Ultimately, my biggest problem with the changes is that the rotation feels hollow now. Without something else to spend Kenki on we're left just spamming Shinten and Kenki may as well not even exist anymore, and that just isn't very fun. I think I'd be more ok with the changes if they added something else to spend Kenki on that would impact the rotation in a meaningful way.


A translated quote from Yoshi P. from the FFXIV Reddit Discord Translation\Live Letter Channel (https://discord.gg/ffxiv):
"...and on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move"

[CelestiCer]

I think you have the right of it. From what I've read on this, it sounds like Kaiten was difficult for them to design around, but there isn't a lot of detail on why exactly.

I agree. They did all of it to solve the problem of " Absolutely Nothing ".

• They did not fix imaginary Button Bloat issues
• They did not fix imaginary Action Bloat issues
• Kaiten removal was unneccary to achieve auto-crits
• Heck Kaiten could have been the reason to achieve auto-crits
• Aesthetically a big loss for many SAM mains
• Rotation feels hollow and Kenki Management destroyed
• Skill-Ceiling and Skill-Floor lowered
• No one even asked for Kaiten removal to begin with

Lastly, the excuse to replace Kaiten? since it's indicated with the description noting SAM feels quote " Restrictive ", restrictive from what? rotation? design? hard to add new skills? from what? Kaiten could have been perfectly been left alone until they are ready on the big Patch to show something that is either equally as good or better to replace it ( with btw, tall task ).

Cause so far, Kaiten has been replaced with " Absolutely Nothing " to Fix " Absolutely Nothing "