Party changes moving forward for 8-man content

[Gemina]

i will trivialize content cause people are clearing it without healers and hell sometimes even without DPS. the only reason content is harder is not the content it's the players those are two completely different things. even you yourself said we only need two healers if SOMEBODY messes up not the content requiring it. cause it's all scripted and not hitting hard enough/frequent enough to need it.

Ever been in a group where everything was going smooth, and then for some reason, when the boss is <5% still finds a way to wipe the group? I'm sure you have, especially if you have any kind of extensive experience in PvE content. How about a boss enraging at 1%? Makes you think on the mistakes yourself or the other members of the group made during the encounter, doesn't it? "If only I didn't die after that one mechanic; we would have cleared the fight." I wonder how many players have told themselves this. It is a testament at just how quickly the tide can turn in favor of the boss, and how much HP is locked up in even 1% of the boss' health.

I say don't trivialize content for several reasons, and difficulty is only of them. A lot of time and effort goes into the design of the encounter. Players tend to learn the encounter through trial and error, and that has to happen before they can even begin to think about optimizing it. And player skill also falls under this umbrella, which are all over the place. This is even more true in casual content where lowest common denominator players are grouped up with players of exceptionally high skill on their DC.

When I say 8-man encounters need two healers, it isn't because of the difficulty per se; but rather it has more to do not putting unnecessary pressure on one player, and to cover their arse in case they mess up. The majority of the game's healers find comfort in having a co healer to help ease that pressure. It isn't on anyone to dictate what kind of pressure any player should or shouldn't be feeling.

also boo hoo SMN uses their swift cast on a raise or RDM uses one of their many dualcasts on raising especially if it's during downtimes they lose one GCD to do the entire thing you brought a second whole healer for.nd guess what they 'lls till deal more damage overall even losing that one GCD compared to bringing another healer

Hey, don't tell me about this. Why don't you take this argument to the game's optimizers. Especially considering the futility of trying to get healers to not use their GCDs on restorative abilities, despite that is really the only thing for them to use GCDs on other than their very limited offensive kits.

when most people say no healing they refer that there's no healing needed outside of "scripted" healing which is 100% true. cause unless somebody messes up a mechanic it's literally 0 healing needed and besides it only like one extra oGCD heal being used. boy i sure am healing a lot. also yes we're human we all make mistakes even top tier players make mistakes but thats how you learn you progress. and considering we literally have content being completed healerless and a tank that can in fact solo a dungeon. dismissing the fact that healers are becoming less needed is a huge oversight. P1s was cleared by 8 tanks.

If you're admitting that players make mistakes, even veteran players; there is no argument to be had here. You are literally on the same page as myself and the other poster you've quoted. Content being scripted is not a reason to take away a healer from the comp, and does very little to make a case about healing requirements in general. People love to use healing requirements, or the lack thereof to make their case to overhaul the healers. Problem is they never tell the whole story, so they use it to only benefit their own agenda. Encounter design has healing requirements that are static, meaning they are present each and every time you participate in that instance. The other healing requirements are those that fall on the player to correct the mistakes of others. These are intangibles that require a healer to be reactive, and arguably where their true skill as a healer is tested. And you know that? The majority of the game's healers fail this test.

It's one thing to know what is coming, and have your heals at the ready. It is something else entirely when a monkey wrench in thrown in a player's little scheme to handle the mechanics.

[HyoMinPark]

Except we're human and we eff up from time to time. And when that unfortunate time comes, it sure does help to have a second healer so we don't have to reset or sacrifice the DPS from a DPS player using SMN or RDM.

Party composition factors in that players are human, not robots who never make mistakes. And please don't trivialize content of any difficulty. Not every player has countless insufferable hours of farming high end content under their belts.

I have countless hours farming high end content and I still make mistakes in dungeons sometimes that lead to me dying.

Some people are "perfect" all the time, but most people aren't. Posts acting like healers do no healing in Savage baffle me, since only at the highest end is that possible. I wonder how some of those healers would react in more casual statics (We've had a few hardcore healers sub in occasionally, and it tends to not work out well lol)

First of all, I make mistakes all the time. That does not change how objectively low healing requirements are in all content. If you think there is 50/50 split between healing and damage uptime, you are incorrect. With how low the healing requirements are in Savage, they are even lower in content that isn’t Savage.

I am not even top tier in terms of healing and still primarily use oGCDs in Savage.

I wonder how some of those healers would react in more casual statics (We've had a few hardcore healers sub in occasionally, and it tends to not work out well lol)

Probably the same way I do in my static? Unless this casual static is expecting me to babysit them and/or the tanks—to which I won’t do since it simply does not need to be done. If my co-healer starts negating all of my healing, then I will probably not heal as much since there isn’t much need if they are going to turn everything I do into an overheal. Which tends to happen a lot because some healers are way overzealous with their GCDs in content. Which they can do whatever they want, but just because they’re pressing those healing GCDs a lot doesn’t mean that the healing was required or even necessary.

[TaleraRistain]

If people want to try non-standard comps, more power to them. But there's redundancy in roles in random DF matching so all the pressure isn't on a single person. They get the chance to be new or just derp that night because they won't bring the entire team down.

[pikalovr]

snip

the reason people use content based healing as their basis for healer arguments is cause it's consistent, you can't sit here and use oh well what if a DPS or healer fails the mechanic as to why you don't need more DPS skills or need one extra ogcd for healing or one extra raise and as i said if somebody plays SMN or RDM they can already fufill both hose requirement (RDM can raise and heal SMN can raise) having an entire slot be filled as a "backup" is actually counterintuitive to your argument to begin with the fact the other healer is here purely as a contingency plan/relieving the other healer and not actually needed means that yes healers do in fact need an overhaul wether it be more DPs buttons or more healing needed in fights that aaren't scripted or what is scripted meaning that there's a reason to have two healers

also yes you will always have those wipe at 1% or more enrages and 9/10 it is becuase people died but guess what you still eat a damage down when being revived and it's still far better for them to learn from the mechanic then squeeze out a clear after being raised that instills a mentality of i can slouch and get by with messing up mechanics cause a healer will make up for it and say thats not what happens but look at how many people who have clears but still fail multiple mechanics cause htey were carried essentially and weren't forced to truly learn the mechanics

[Gemina]

First of all, I make mistakes all the time. That does not change how objectively low healing requirements are in all content. If you think there is 50/50 split between healing and damage uptime, you are incorrect. With how low the healing requirements are in Savage, they are even lower in content that isn’t Savage.

I am not even top tier in terms of healing and still primarily use oGCDs in Savage.

This makes no sense. You're telling me that when you make mistakes, it does not increase the healing requirement? This doesn't even compute. Are there heal bots in Savage? If you make a mistake putting you in crit HP, or a one-shot, the healer has to fix your mistake. This requires them to use healing resources on you they otherwise did not have to. IOW, the requirement goes up. The requirements most certainly doesn't remain stagnant. Because if the healer does nothing, you either die to the next unavoidable attack, and/or stay on the ground. By admitting you make mistakes, whether you want to or not, also admit that healing requirements are mutable.

In my last post, I explained that healing requirements come in two forms. The static form, which you and so many other players love to refer to does not, and cannot be changed. If you feel these fixed requirements are low, then make your case. However, the case I have made, and continue to make after all these years is that because the intangible requirements are so unpredictable due to varied skill level and attention levels, they have to remain so. See while you're busting your ass in Savage, in a static, where everyone knows what they're doing, making sporadic yet human mistakes from time to time; down yonder in the casual playground, players screw up all the time. The intangible healing requirements can and do go up significantly. My roulette tonight threw me in 012N. The bug crushed everyone with Starboard/Larboard. The healers were actually the ones not taking damage, but the rest of the damage was just too much for them to keep up with. And I will tell you this, they weren't casting a whole lot of Broils/Malefics/etc.

This is just one example? Well, I can come up with many, many, many more. You'll argue that you shouldn't have to rely on the ineptness of randos to find engaging content for healers. My question is why do you feel that way? Seriously, why? Do you not understand that you bring a great service to any group who is struggling? Is it not rewarding for you to know how much you contributed to the clear? Isn't this what you say is missing from healing?

I don't participate in savage, so I cannot speak for the healing requirements and how I do with them. However, I do know that the static healing requirements for those duties are much higher than their NM counterparts, and enrage nullifies your ability to sustain an instance longer than what is allowed within the enrage timer. However, with EX and unreal trials, I have still found learning parties to be quite wealthy of healing requirements. If you want it, then don't be afraid to leave your circle to seek it out. That is far easier than trying to get the devs to overhaul healing and encounter design, that is for damn sure.

[pikalovr]

do you honestly hear how stupid you sound? relying on others messups to get enjoyment and difficulty out of your job? thats like saying how would you feel as a DPS if you could obnly get enjoyment/difficult scenarios when the tank dies and you have to tank the damage?

HEALING REQUIREMENT is he baseline needed to clear the content just like a DPS requirement is the baseline DPS needed to clear before enrage. so you're saying we should make the DPS requirement only able to be achieved if we synergize our buffs exactly right and so now we have more difficulty cause one person or more misaligned their buffs

helping a failing group is it's own reward yes but thats no excuse as to why we should be useless on more experienced groups. why does everyone insist on lockign out an entire side of the gameplay? oh no you ran a random duty and had a party that basically wiped clearly the healing requirements shouldn't be increased or more chances for healers to DPS when they you know actually know what they're doing and so does their group or hell majority of their group at that i switched back to sage while our healer was out for P2s and we only had a few trouble situations but guess what i still was able to DPS quite a bit cause thats whats happens when you know how to make up for mistakes you know learning how to use your kit in multiple situations

[MintnHoney]

Maybe I'm too much of a casual to see the problem, but not even I have an issue with solo healing encounters if and when things go wrong, or if a co-healer jumps ship, or even going into party as the solo healer for various encounters. It can be done, it just means that the responsibility for healing is no longer split in two. If we make a mistake, then, well, oops. Just like with every other job: oops. And the party will have to adjust, just like healers have to always adjust, and move on.
If the implication is that healers can't be allowed to make mistakes, or that we must have a back up healer because we do expect the one healer to make mistakes, then I have to ask why healers are the only role that aren't ever allowed to make mistakes in a game that's basically all about learning the choreography of a fight to perfection in order to avoid being KO'd? We also have multiple jobs that can provide party support and emergency healing or pick-me-ups, so the responsibility of fixing every party member's mistakes doesn't have to solely be on the healer anymore (in fact, the combination of the lower damage output and the capacity for other roles to heal and take care of themselves and the party is what has been leading to encounters being completed without any healers in the party).

You can argue that you're bringing the other healer for convenience, in the event that one or both healers make mistakes and can then cover for each other while allowing the other jobs to continue to DPS without any concern, but then that just makes me think that the only real concern being batted around is about meeting certain parses, and then makes me concerned that healers, as a role, are really only there as a convenience while other players think about meeting those certain parses and try to have fun.

Anyway, I agree that it'd be a simple matter to get away with having 1 healer in 8-man content, so perhaps changing the other healer slot to be an option for healer or dps wouldn't be a bad idea. I do think that 2 tanks is a necessity for certain encounters, though their inclusion is generally underutilized by the design team.

You'll argue that you shouldn't have to rely on the ineptness of randos to find engaging content for healers. My question is why do you feel that way? Seriously, why? Do you not understand that you bring a great service to any group who is struggling? Is it not rewarding for you to know how much you contributed to the clear? Isn't this what you say is missing from healing?

I don't know, my impression of their posts is that they believe that engagement is missing from healing and that general improvements can be made to the jobs within the role in order to facilitate that, rather than just missing a sense of pride in providing a service.

[kpxmanifesto]

Instead of 2 tanks, 2 healer and 4 dps.

Should be:

1 tank: Keeps aggro away from the party, does damage, moves the boss if needed and provides mitigation for self and party.

2 healers now changed to SUPPORTERS: provide damage buffs to party, an extra party mitigation, does damage, and 1 or 2 healing buttons for an emergency.

5 dps: do damage, some self buffs for utility.

Nah, parties should should have an off-tank.

[Gemina]

the reason people use content based healing as their basis for healer arguments is cause it's consistent, you can't sit here and use oh well what if a DPS or healer fails the mechanic as to why you don't need more DPS skills or need one extra ogcd for healing or one extra raise and as i said if somebody plays SMN or RDM they can already fufill both hose requirement (RDM can raise and heal SMN can raise) having an entire slot be filled as a "backup" is actually counterintuitive to your argument to begin with the fact the other healer is here purely as a contingency plan/relieving the other healer and not actually needed means that yes healers do in fact need an overhaul wether it be more DPs buttons or more healing needed in fights that aaren't scripted or what is scripted meaning that there's a reason to have two healers

also yes you will always have those wipe at 1% or more enrages and 9/10 it is becuase people died but guess what you still eat a damage down when being revived and it's still far better for them to learn from the mechanic then squeeze out a clear after being raised that instills a mentality of i can slouch and get by with messing up mechanics cause a healer will make up for it and say thats not what happens but look at how many people who have clears but still fail multiple mechanics cause htey were carried essentially and weren't forced to truly learn the mechanics

What's consistent is the static healing requirement in any given duty. That is it, and you can always plan around that. You can't just dismiss the mistakes players can and will make. The dev team most certainly does not, so what makes you think you can? You CANNOT design content based on optimal play. You have to allow for some mistakes, or the content will not be able to be cleared by most groups. While you're not saying that directly, it is what is being implied in your statements.

RDMs and SMNs have very little healing ability. They can raise, yes. But if someone takes damage from an avoidable attack, and the unavoidable is about to finish them off, there is very little a RDM can do, and a SMN can't do anything in this situation. All they can really do is raise the player after they are KO'd. I absolutely should not have to point these things out. Anyone who plays this game and participates in PvE should be well aware of these factors that are present in everyday gameplay from the playerbase. At any given time, there is a player currently eating dirt that the healer could have saved.

As for your last statement, I really don't know what you're on about. You're admitting the truth in my statements, but at the same time don't really want to accept them and resorting to the rare mentality where players expect to be carried instead of learn. I understand that these players do exist, but I can also make a case for the impatience of other players who won't give these players the time they need to learn. You ever been in party that is clearly specified as a learning party, only to have one or more players leave after the first wipe? I for one can vouch that this happens far more than running into players who truly do expect to be carried.

Again, players love to only tell the part of the story that fits their arguments, when they are well aware that other factors exist.

[Gemina]

I don't know, my impression of their posts is that they believe that engagement is missing from healing and that general improvements can be made to the jobs within the role in order to facilitate that, rather than just missing a sense of pride in providing a service.

If that was it, I wouldn't have spent the better part of my evening trying to explain certain factors that exist in the game that everyone should be aware of.

Of course improvements can be made to healing. I never said they could not, but this thread topic is addressing the validity of 2 healers/tanks in 8-man content, and what I strongly disagree with the reasoning why one, or even both healers should be removed. I addressed engagement in my last post to Hyomin, but also understand that the lack of engagement, and the frustration with it leads to extreme comments such as removing healers altogether. I know those comments are emotionally driven, and are not woven with threads of reason. These players, myself included know this is not the answer. Of course it is not the answer.

There is no getting around that we all provide a service when we enter the duty finder. That being so, everyone should be having fun. The thing is, there are healers that are having fun. I fall in this group as well. I can't speak for savage or Ultimate, and I am aware of the one button smash dance in many duties due to a combination of low healing requirements, and players doing mechanics correctly.

I don't run Savage duties because my availability is sporadic, plus I love my freedom and don't like being bound by a static. However, my thoughts are beginning to shift even if only to experience what other players are going through in those encounters. When I know players only tell part of the story, I wonder what they are omitting from their details here.