Party changes moving forward for 8-man content

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

You can do a lot of dungeons with 4 DPS already. I once did Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium each with 8 DPS and we were successful. Ultima was challenging but we found a way to beat it the second time.

What you learn about removing either tanks or healers is that the game becomes a lot more fun. I would want to remove tanks, personally, because then enemies would run all over the place like Rathalos.

See, GW2 tried to do that, and encounters were rather bland and easy. It didn't add any depth to combat and they ended up adding a form of trinity back later for raids

[Deveryn]

Congrats on creating alliance raid groups!

[IdowhatIwant]

Instead of 2 tanks, 2 healer and 4 dps.

Should be:

1 tank: Keeps aggro away from the party, does damage, moves the boss if needed and provides mitigation for self and party.

2 healers now changed to SUPPORTERS: provide damage buffs to party, an extra party mitigation, does damage, and 1 or 2 healing buttons for an emergency.

5 dps: do damage, some self buffs for utility.

I really hate this.

[Seraphor]

Oh yay this sounds good for tank queues, and gets rid of all of those pesky tank mechanics tanks have to do that make them play differently to dps jobs.

[TaleraRistain]

If people want to try non-standard comps, more power to them. But there's redundancy in roles in random DF matching so all the pressure isn't on a single person. They get the chance to be new or just derp that night because they won't bring the entire team down.

[pikalovr]

snip

the reason people use content based healing as their basis for healer arguments is cause it's consistent, you can't sit here and use oh well what if a DPS or healer fails the mechanic as to why you don't need more DPS skills or need one extra ogcd for healing or one extra raise and as i said if somebody plays SMN or RDM they can already fufill both hose requirement (RDM can raise and heal SMN can raise) having an entire slot be filled as a "backup" is actually counterintuitive to your argument to begin with the fact the other healer is here purely as a contingency plan/relieving the other healer and not actually needed means that yes healers do in fact need an overhaul wether it be more DPs buttons or more healing needed in fights that aaren't scripted or what is scripted meaning that there's a reason to have two healers

also yes you will always have those wipe at 1% or more enrages and 9/10 it is becuase people died but guess what you still eat a damage down when being revived and it's still far better for them to learn from the mechanic then squeeze out a clear after being raised that instills a mentality of i can slouch and get by with messing up mechanics cause a healer will make up for it and say thats not what happens but look at how many people who have clears but still fail multiple mechanics cause htey were carried essentially and weren't forced to truly learn the mechanics

[Gemina]

the reason people use content based healing as their basis for healer arguments is cause it's consistent, you can't sit here and use oh well what if a DPS or healer fails the mechanic as to why you don't need more DPS skills or need one extra ogcd for healing or one extra raise and as i said if somebody plays SMN or RDM they can already fufill both hose requirement (RDM can raise and heal SMN can raise) having an entire slot be filled as a "backup" is actually counterintuitive to your argument to begin with the fact the other healer is here purely as a contingency plan/relieving the other healer and not actually needed means that yes healers do in fact need an overhaul wether it be more DPs buttons or more healing needed in fights that aaren't scripted or what is scripted meaning that there's a reason to have two healers

also yes you will always have those wipe at 1% or more enrages and 9/10 it is becuase people died but guess what you still eat a damage down when being revived and it's still far better for them to learn from the mechanic then squeeze out a clear after being raised that instills a mentality of i can slouch and get by with messing up mechanics cause a healer will make up for it and say thats not what happens but look at how many people who have clears but still fail multiple mechanics cause htey were carried essentially and weren't forced to truly learn the mechanics

What's consistent is the static healing requirement in any given duty. That is it, and you can always plan around that. You can't just dismiss the mistakes players can and will make. The dev team most certainly does not, so what makes you think you can? You CANNOT design content based on optimal play. You have to allow for some mistakes, or the content will not be able to be cleared by most groups. While you're not saying that directly, it is what is being implied in your statements.

RDMs and SMNs have very little healing ability. They can raise, yes. But if someone takes damage from an avoidable attack, and the unavoidable is about to finish them off, there is very little a RDM can do, and a SMN can't do anything in this situation. All they can really do is raise the player after they are KO'd. I absolutely should not have to point these things out. Anyone who plays this game and participates in PvE should be well aware of these factors that are present in everyday gameplay from the playerbase. At any given time, there is a player currently eating dirt that the healer could have saved.

As for your last statement, I really don't know what you're on about. You're admitting the truth in my statements, but at the same time don't really want to accept them and resorting to the rare mentality where players expect to be carried instead of learn. I understand that these players do exist, but I can also make a case for the impatience of other players who won't give these players the time they need to learn. You ever been in party that is clearly specified as a learning party, only to have one or more players leave after the first wipe? I for one can vouch that this happens far more than running into players who truly do expect to be carried.

Again, players love to only tell the part of the story that fits their arguments, when they are well aware that other factors exist.

[pikalovr]

snip

i never said make it have to be purely based on pinpoint optimal play i'm saying that it needs to be increased so you don't have to rely on others for enjoyment from YOUR OWN JOB. all cause you actually know how to play healer and deal with mistakes. cause at the end of the day you do have outliers that occur but if the consistent requirement is so low that you literally have no reason to not just pop an ogcd on somebody who eats a mechanic thats the issue. you should be forced to think about is it worth me popping the oGCD on them now or save it for x mechanic coming soon. you've never touched savage nearly at all so you have no idea how many people actually expect to carried and how many people leave and one person or two leaving a party isn't nowhere near as bad as a player expecting to be carried, at least if they leave you can remake. not find out two + pulls later they actually don't know alot of the fight. and either carry them, or teach them the fight anyways, or kick them and remake. the fact you lack the knowledge to understand the amount of time lost by both accounts is exactly why you should not be arguing.

also if you actually paid attention to vercure you would know it's basically a cure 1 pre 85 (150 less potency post 85 but still nothing to scoff at) but on RDM which is quite useful on multiple occasions not to mention dual cast allow you to cast 2 vercures in the span of 3seconds. if i see the tanks barely hanging on and both healers are down there's a reason why i can keep the tank up while my healers get up from laying on the ground dead. and yes SMN has no heal (well thats effective) but they do still have swift cast raise which is still far better than nothing and witht eh ruby ruin changes they now only use swift purely for movement or rezzing now anyways

also sounds more like you need to quit strawmanning your arguments and understand that maybe just maybe there's healers that actually you know KNOW HOW TO PLAY THEIR JOB and don't want to be punished cause little timmy here is still spamming cure 1 in 90 content or heaven forbid the party wipes in O12n oh no it's almost as if that's called learning (in some cases relearning)

[pikalovr]

do you honestly hear how stupid you sound? relying on others messups to get enjoyment and difficulty out of your job? thats like saying how would you feel as a DPS if you could obnly get enjoyment/difficult scenarios when the tank dies and you have to tank the damage?

HEALING REQUIREMENT is he baseline needed to clear the content just like a DPS requirement is the baseline DPS needed to clear before enrage. so you're saying we should make the DPS requirement only able to be achieved if we synergize our buffs exactly right and so now we have more difficulty cause one person or more misaligned their buffs

helping a failing group is it's own reward yes but thats no excuse as to why we should be useless on more experienced groups. why does everyone insist on lockign out an entire side of the gameplay? oh no you ran a random duty and had a party that basically wiped clearly the healing requirements shouldn't be increased or more chances for healers to DPS when they you know actually know what they're doing and so does their group or hell majority of their group at that i switched back to sage while our healer was out for P2s and we only had a few trouble situations but guess what i still was able to DPS quite a bit cause thats whats happens when you know how to make up for mistakes you know learning how to use your kit in multiple situations

[kpxmanifesto]

Instead of 2 tanks, 2 healer and 4 dps.

Should be:

1 tank: Keeps aggro away from the party, does damage, moves the boss if needed and provides mitigation for self and party.

2 healers now changed to SUPPORTERS: provide damage buffs to party, an extra party mitigation, does damage, and 1 or 2 healing buttons for an emergency.

5 dps: do damage, some self buffs for utility.

Nah, parties should should have an off-tank.