In regards to something involving the main cast

[Vyrerus]

...the fact they created highly dangerous things more powerful than themselves is kind of scary.

It's no more scary than the present Sundered folks who can channel the Void and bring Voidsent and arrange Voidsent pacts in order to become nigh immortal vampires who feed on aether (or any of the other crazy Void stories we've had over the years). Also no more scary than summoning primals, really. Mankind ever looks to make things more powerful than any individual could ever hope to be. Just look to the real world and splitting the atom.

[sidurgu-12]

It's no more scary than the present Sundered folks who can channel the Void and bring Voidsent and arrange Voidsent pacts in order to become nigh immortal vampires who feed on aether (or any of the other crazy Void stories we've had over the years). Also no more scary than summoning primals, really. Mankind ever looks to make things more powerful than any individual could ever hope to be. Just look to the real world and splitting the atom.

slight difference- the sundered have to use outside means to do primal summoning and such, the ancients can create things from their own aether or as a group and these creations can warp reality (at a massive energy cost). its that slight difference that scares me a bit.

[Vyrerus]

slight difference- the sundered have to use outside means to do primal summoning and such, the ancients can create things from their own aether or as a group and these creations can warp reality (at a massive energy cost). its that slight difference that scares me a bit.

Afforded the same powers, the Sundered would do the same thing, as in the end, they are a diluted version of the same people, same existence.

[EaraGrace]

Why is it important that they meet your idea of morality? I think that's the real question here. What level of morality does a world need to have so that when they're wiped out you can feel comfortable that nothing of value was lost?

Well I do believe that morality is objective, so an unjust society necessarily must be changed. But once again we’re ignoring the fact that the choice wasn’t between letting an unjust society continue or destroying it, but either allowing an unjust society to destroy itself and all life, or destroy the society earlier and grant future generations the chance to live on. If the Ancients hadn’t turned all their power toward ensuring the world was exactly like it was before, and if they hadn’t built a god of immense power to facilitate that end, then I don't think the Sundering would be the necessary action.

[shadowclasper]

Because of the level of difference. Ancients created fully sapient beings, where as shtola just made a couple of magical robots without souls or true intelligence

[Lauront]

Only in some cases - in fact, aside from Meteion (Hermes's pet project he never submitted for proper approvals), I can't think of very many. It is rare that the star would stick a soul in a familiar/arcane construct. So they're mostly dealing with animals, plants and arcane constructs, which we're now being told are a non-issue.

Afforded the same powers, the Sundered would do the same thing, as in the end, they are a diluted version of the same people, same existence.

Case in point:



They can also reverse this. And we can look to the Allagan empire for far, far worse examples, and just about anywhere else for much more gratuitous use of any number of different life forms. Guess the sundered need to be sundered more and wiped out and we can cheer said genocide on as a Good Thing (tm) as Certifiably Good People (tm). But I'm sure it's fine and that the WoL said thanks to all those gorillas they wiped out, or the sentient mochi they put down without second thought, or the chimera brain... it's okay when we do it (tm).

[EaraGrace]

We just can’t have any conversations without this level of bad faith can we.

[Cleretic]

Only in some cases - in fact, aside from Meteion (Hermes's pet project he never submitted for proper approvals), I can't think of very many. It is rare that the star would stick a soul in a familiar/arcane construct. So they're mostly dealing with animals, plants and arcane constructs, which we're now being told are a non-issue.

I think something important to remember here is that Amaurot actually does have some level of study and understanding of the ensouling of beings; they don't have actual concrete explanations, but they're the ones that know 'yeah, sometimes our creations just get souls, we don't really know why' as an overall fact of life. In the present day such a question isn't really raised; it might be that they don't know that's going on, or (what I think is more likely) that the radically different state of affairs post-Sundering means that it's just not a thing and all creatures have souls anyway. Which might in its way also explain the Leatherworkers' respect for wildlife; they believe that each creature does have the inherent value of a soul and treat them as such, perhaps thanks to some teachings from the conjurers who would probably know that sort of thing better.

But then, the fact that the Ancients know that element of nature is going on means that their actions are a little wild with that context. We had the hypothetical a few pages ago of 'what if the nixie Y'shtola summoned got a soul right then', but even if that were possible, Y'shtola wouldn't necessarily know. Meanwhile, the researchers at Elpis actually do know that at any given creation they make might just suddenly have a soul, and they still do... everything we saw them do. I think that one of Meletos' creations actually getting a soul just in time for the FATE where we kick its ass would be a weirdly, pointlessly dark beat to add, just as it would if it happened to Y'shtola's nixie, but I think it does say something that Meletos and everyone around him knows that can happen and is still okay with what he's doing.

This isn't to say that Amaurot is somehow uniquely terrible and questionable, I'd put them on the level of perhaps Hingashi in knowing their problems but doing little to nothing about them (as opposed to the 'doing their best' Limsa and Ishgard, the 'basically gave up' Ul'Dah or the 'refusing to admit the problem' Gridania). I think it just takes a different form because Amaurot's story frames them more as a collection of individuals rather than an extant, structured society, so if you raise an issue it feels more like calling out personal failures rather than structural or societal shortfalls.

[EaraGrace]

This isn't to say that Amaurot is somehow uniquely terrible and questionable, I'd put them on the level of perhaps Hingashi in knowing their problems but doing little to nothing about them (as opposed to the 'doing their best' Limsa and Ishgard, the 'basically gave up' Ul'Dah or the 'refusing to admit the problem' Gridania). I think it just takes a different form because Amaurot's story frames them more as a collection of individuals rather than an extant, structured society, so if you raise an issue it feels more like calling out personal failures rather than structural or societal shortfalls.

I think Amaurots uniqueness stems from its inherent status at the “top.” It’s Olympus, towering over all on high, while the Sundered nations lie far below, warring, scheming, trading, innovating, growing, and then dying. Amaurot needs little of those things, it is denied nothing and in turn wants for nothing. When a city state rises to prominence on Hydaelyn, it is inevitable that it will fall and it’s approach to the world goes with it. For Etheirys though, that doesn’t happen. It’s the “peak” and one must either be ok with falling back down the mountain and accepting it’s now out of reach, or clinging to it and putting everything back in its place. I mean why wouldn’t you, it’s Amaurot? What can be better?

That’s a least my very romanticized answer

[Rulakir]

Well I do believe that morality is objective, so an unjust society necessarily must be changed.

Okay, so we don't even agree on the fundamentals of the argument. I don't believe morality is objective and I don't believe anyone capable of acting as moral arbiter to decide whether or not a society is unjust or how to change it. All of that sounds tyrannical to me.

Case in point:

I always felt bad for Saro Roggo.




Every time you speak to him he's in a panic to prove himself to Matoya.