In regards to something involving the main cast

[EaraGrace]

That's a Hell of a moral judgment to make and explains a lot as to why we'll never see eye to eye.

First of all, I don't agree with applying modern day standards to the past, especially when the sundered world exists as a result of a crime against mankind. Frankly, if the sundered are struggling with anything the Ancients created 12k years ago take it up with Venat. It certainly wouldn't be the first or only thing her sundering left people ill equipped to handle.

Perhaps I'm missing something but isn't that point of not judging the past due to the fact that we generally regard past societies as being less developed and less advanced in regards to moral and ethical thinking? Wouldn't it be just the opposite for the Ancients then, given their status as "enlightened, stewards of the star?"

And honestly if I had to choose between being well equipped to deal with bears or being better prepared with facing Meteion, the latter is the option I'd go with 100% of the time.

Second, you can't expect a society of 'godlike' beings to be concerned that several millennia in the future their race will be decimated to such an extent they lack the creation magic to even make a robe, something that's pointed out even small children are capable of doing and they can't comprehend why even that is too much for the WoL. Your expectations are unreasonable.

I partly agree with this, the Ancients couldn't have predicted when creating most of their creations that they would need to kill it post Sundering. Still I think Cleretic's point is that the Ancients reasons for creating such species was mostly vanity. While they did have criteria for what they released the fact that the Behemoth was approved should be a good indicator that maybe they aren't doing things purely for the benefit of the star.

Third, saying good people wouldn't create apex predators is an inflammatory statement and that's all I'm going to say about it.

I'd say making apex predators for the purpose of improving the function of certain habitats is a good reason and doesn't reflect poorly on anyone. Doing it just because you thought it'd be cool though? You're this guy.

Same mind. My general stance is: sundered = not bad. Unsundered = not bad. Funnily enough, I recall that Famitsu interview recently where Yoshida said the Ancients came across as "scary" but many of the JP players instead thought they were "good people".

Personally think the game itself does a disservice by flinging around "Perfect! Perfect! Perfect!" as hatebait. It was pretty obvious since 5.0 that their society was not perfect with hints to a darker past, but nonetheless, they won me over.

I think the purpose regarding the repeated use of perfect was to make clear that while the flaws were obvious to us, they were less so to the Amaurotines themselves, largely due to their mistakenly belief that they had a society, position, purpose etc. that gave them moral and intellectual superiority. That they were, in fact, perfect or close to it. This would also be what leads the Ascians to be... well... what they were. "Who are you? No one. Nothing."

[Rulakir]

They did not create the world we walk with the view of kindness and fairness to all within it. That's unarguable, and we can call it cruel and inconsiderate because it was. And to deny that would also be to deny the Ancients' inherent humanity and agency.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't 'get' it. I feel the need to address this because it's a common tactic I see in this forum to dismiss people.

The quoted statement is just further confirmation there's no discussing the story with you because you are so hardwired in your beliefs you don't even consider the subject debatable. You have already passed your judgment on the Ancients and deemed any other interpretation to be wrong to the extent of cutting anyone who would dissent off at the pass by saying they'd be in denial.

[sidurgu-12]

all of this mud.... because yshtola created a cute mindless bubble.

[KizuyaKatogami]

all of this mud.... because yshtola created a cute mindless bubble.

That’s just one example. It’s mainly because this story has a bad case of rules for thee but not for me.

[sidurgu-12]

That’s just one example. It’s mainly because this story has a bad case of rules for thee but not for me.

genuine question- when? the time travel to save the wol? which also prevents the heroes from being too crippled to fight back against the ascians and saves an entire world? or the primal summoning in the eden raid? which let them rebalance the worlds aether and let it heal?

[Cleretic]

genuine question- when? the time travel to save the wol? which also prevents the heroes from being too crippled to fight back against the ascians and saves an entire world? or the primal summoning in the eden raid? which let them rebalance the worlds aether and let it heal?

Fifty imaginary dollars says they're gonna say Venat and this thread spirals into that argument too.

I've mentioned before, I've seen a lot of people claim hypocrisy on the part of the game or the playerbase in giving heroes a pass for actions the same as the villains, but whose examples only make sense if you completely dismiss all context explaining the actual difference between the two.

[sidurgu-12]

Fifty imaginary dollars says they're gonna say Venat and this thread spirals into that argument too.

honestly after that last thread im so incredibly tired of that debate.

[KizuyaKatogami]

genuine question- when? the time travel to save the wol? which also prevents the heroes from being too crippled to fight back against the ascians and saves an entire world? or the primal summoning in the eden raid? which let them rebalance the worlds aether and let it heal?

I already gave one example. The WoL expressing shock at butterflies being killed for clothing when it’s literally no different from leather workers or Weavers killing animals to make their products. It’s a weird tone deaf way of trying to paint the ancients as “scary” when in reality what they do is no different from what the sundered do.

[sidurgu-12]

I already gave one example. The WoL expressing shock at butterflies being killed for clothing when it’s literally no different from leather workers or Weavers killing animals to make their products. It’s a weird tone deaf way of trying to paint the ancients as “scary” when in reality what they do is no different from what the sundered do.

the given responses are wondering if their creators would get mad at us or something else. in game we never condemn them for the butterflies or anything else in elpis for that matter.

[Cleretic]

I already gave one example. The WoL expressing shock at butterflies being killed for clothing when it’s literally no different from leather workers or Weavers killing animals to make their products. It’s a weird tone deaf way of trying to paint the ancients as “scary” when in reality what they do is no different from what the sundered do.

Except that Leatherworker itself teaches that Eorzean leatherworking is done with a deep care for the animals and the land. A care that Hythlodaeus doesn't show anything comparable to--and in fact, one that seems to be held by only a minority of people in Elpis. So yeah, as a level 90 Leatherworker, I'm calling Hythlodaeus pretty insensitive on this one, although I will point out that the game itself never does.

(I recommend doing Leatherworker before commenting on it; Leatherworker is an understated hitmaker of the class questlines, all three of their storylines are great.)