In regards to something involving the main cast

[Cleretic]

I already gave one example. The WoL expressing shock at butterflies being killed for clothing when it’s literally no different from leather workers or Weavers killing animals to make their products. It’s a weird tone deaf way of trying to paint the ancients as “scary” when in reality what they do is no different from what the sundered do.

Except that Leatherworker itself teaches that Eorzean leatherworking is done with a deep care for the animals and the land. A care that Hythlodaeus doesn't show anything comparable to--and in fact, one that seems to be held by only a minority of people in Elpis. So yeah, as a level 90 Leatherworker, I'm calling Hythlodaeus pretty insensitive on this one, although I will point out that the game itself never does.

(I recommend doing Leatherworker before commenting on it; Leatherworker is an understated hitmaker of the class questlines, all three of their storylines are great.)

[KizuyaKatogami]

Except that Leatherworker itself teaches that Eorzean leatherworking is done with a deep care for the animals and the land. A care that Hythlodaeus doesn't show anything comparable to--and in fact, one that seems to be held by only a minority of people in Elpis. So yeah, as a level 90 Leatherworker, I'm calling Hythlodaeus pretty insensitive on this one, although I will point out that the game itself never does.

(I recommend doing Leatherworker before commenting on it; Leatherworker is an understated hitmaker of the class questlines, all three of their storylines are great.)

I’ve done leatherworker, i don’t need you to be condescending and tell me to do it. Just as they’re shown to care for the animals and land, so too do the ancients so i’m confused as to why there’s a differentiation here. Do we as the player pray for every animal killed? It seems we didn’t care too much since we almost caused the extinction of an entire species of animal in diadem as well.

[sidurgu-12]

Except that Leatherworker itself teaches that Eorzean leatherworking is done with a deep care for the animals and the land. A care that Hythlodaeus doesn't show anything comparable to--and in fact, one that seems to be held by only a minority of people in Elpis. So yeah, as a level 90 Leatherworker, I'm calling Hythlodaeus pretty insensitive on this one, although I will point out that the game itself never does.

(I recommend doing Leatherworker before commenting on it; Leatherworker is an understated hitmaker of the class questlines, all three of their storylines are great.)

out of all the roll quests crafters tend to have the best stories. though id recommend alchemy since i havent done leatherworking yet.

[Cleretic]

I’ve done leatherworker, i don’t need you to be condescending and tell me to do it. Just as they’re shown to care for the animals and land, so too do the ancients so i’m confused as to why there’s a differentiation here. Do we as the player pray for every animal killed? It seems we didn’t care too much since we almost caused the extinction of an entire species of animal in diadem as well.

Did Hythlodaeus do those things? My message on this whole thing has always been on an individual level above all else; I'm calling out Hythlodaeus for being less sensitive to animals than Eorzean leatherworkers, which is why I give the latter more of a pass than the former.

The Ancients are a population of people, and like all populations of people, some of them are better or worse than others. Elpis has Meletos in it, that's perhaps the greatest example of all that they aren't really saints. But even though I'll point out individual ills, I can't let the entire nation off the hook, because then of course you factor in that everything in the present world's biosphere is a knock-on effect of a decision someone in Elpis made, and there's suddenly a lot of legitimate complaints to raise with these guys, and the answers aren't necessarily going to be nice ones. I'm inclined to raise an eyebrow at both the individual Ancient that invented Ixion, and the system that approved it, because... well, that system can't possibly have only one Meletos.

I look the same way at all societies we've been through in this game, it's just that this one gets a little weird because we didn't exactly sit down and talk about the societal breakdown of Amaurot. I went through this in my politics videos; Amaurot's a weird egg in terms of this game's 'nations' for that reason, but it's no less full of issues to look at and address, it just has to be in a different way.

[sidurgu-12]

Did Hythlodaeus do those things? My message on this whole thing has always been on an individual level above all else; I'm calling out Hythlodaeus for being less sensitive to animals than Eorzean leatherworkers, which is why I give the latter more of a pass than the former.

The Ancients are a population of people, and like all populations of people, some of them are better or worse than others. Elpis has Meletos in it, that's perhaps the greatest example of all that they aren't really saints. But even though I'll point out individual ills, I can't let the entire nation off the hook, because then of course you factor in that everything in the present world's biosphere is a knock-on effect of a decision someone in Elpis made, and there's suddenly a lot of legitimate complaints to raise with these guys, and the answers aren't necessarily going to be nice ones. I'm inclined to raise an eyebrow at both the individual Ancient that invented Ixion, and the system that approved it, because... well, that system can't possibly have only one Meletos.

I look the same way at all societies we've been through in this game, it's just that this one gets a little weird because we didn't exactly sit down and talk about the societal breakdown of Amaurot. I went through this in my politics videos; Amaurot's a weird egg in terms of this game's 'nations' for that reason, but it's no less full of issues to look at and address, it just has to be in a different way.

im more mad at the phantasmal creators given the fact that spirit monsters have no real role in nature.

[MoofiaBossVal]

You can't really judge the Amaurotines for living in a different time, with no knowledge of the sundered world. People in the unsundered world were powerful wizards. They did not need to go into the wilderness to hunt food and risk being attacked by monsters. They could just conjure food up at home. The wizards also have magical perception that would allow them to see anything coming from a distance, and they could easily protect themselves, either by teleporting, flying, turning invisible, casting a barrier spell, transforming, casting an illusion spell on the monster, or simply kill it. And lastly, the Amaurotines who created the monsters had no reasonable way of knowing that there would eventually be a race of weak people going into the wilderness and being vulnerable to monsters.

[Rulakir]

The treatment of death is always going to vary by culture and religion. I also don't believe the LTW quests somehow nullify the gross amount of senseless killing that occurs in the world either, which more often than not doesn't result in the procurement of crafting materials. Not to mention that living creatures don't give a toss if you're thankful to them, you're still taking their life against their will. I could say I'm thankful for the shards dying so that my WoL can become more whole, does that make rejoinings okay?

It seems like people are looking for reasons to condemn the Ancients so they can feel self-assured they deserved their fate or at least convince others they did. Even if they were unquestionably bad I would still struggle to make that judgment. The fact that they weren't and you have to nitpick to find (subjective) reasons they weren't good speaks for itself. There's no evidence there was war, murder, sex trafficking, etc. (all things that exist in the sundered world) in their society, which by all appearances was peaceful and prosperous. So, instead, we're going to buckle down on the fact that they had a belief system individuals (certainly not consensus) don't agree with and weren't vegan.

[EaraGrace]

The treatment of death is always going to vary by culture and religion. I also don't believe the LTW quests somehow nullify the gross amount of senseless killing that occurs in the world either, which more often than not doesn't result in the procurement of crafting materials. Not to mention that living creatures don't give a toss if you're thankful to them, you're still taking their life against their will. I could say I'm thankful for the shards dying so that my WoL can become more whole, does that make rejoinings okay?

Is your WoL becoming whole as much a moral good as preventing the destruction of all life?

It seems like people are looking for reasons to condemn the Ancients so they can feel self-assured they deserved their fate or at least convince others they did. Even if they were unquestionably bad I would still struggle to make that judgment. The fact that they weren't and you have to nitpick to find (subjective) reasons they weren't good speaks for itself. There's no evidence there was war, murder, sex trafficking, etc. (all things that exist in the sundered world) in their society, which by all appearances was peaceful and prosperous. So, instead, we're going to buckle down on the fact that they had a belief system individuals (certainly not consensus) don't agree with and weren't vegan.

Again, the Ancients were blessed with inherent abilities and vitality that made life easy. Objectively made life easy. The fact war doesn’t exist is not evidence of moral superiority, because they lacked the factors that made war desirable to the Sundered. And I’d point out, murder and other crimes are not said to not exist. They just were swept under the rug. Less in number for sure, but still there. Pandaemonium is indicative of that, hell even the Final Days is technically born of internal conflict.

[sidurgu-12]

They just were swept under the rug

like the pixie beavers.
or on a more serious note pandaemonium. though tbf the higher floors are for studying why some failed while the lower is to contain those too powerful.

...the fact they created highly dangerous things more powerful than themselves is kind of scary.

[Rulakir]

Why is it important that they meet your idea of morality? I think that's the real question here. What level of morality does a world need to have so that when they're wiped out you can feel comfortable that nothing of value was lost?