Thoughts on PVP balancing - before nerfing war/rdm/drg/etc

[Risvertasashi]

While I get your general perspective, it's not applicable in this case.

Please provide me an example of another class, specifically in the healer groups (because they seem to try and put a healer and tank in every match they can) or even outside of it that can use an AOE stun dps mitigation regen every 60s (that isn't a WAR with a 15s AOE stun lol).

I'll wait.

There isn't one. That's why they can't compete with DPS for a slot.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

There isn't one. That's why they can't compete with DPS for a slot.

So you agree then that there shouldn't be a class(classes) that have a preferential makeup in parties due to an overstacked kit? Or do you think that the LB is the only thing keeping WHM being ran at all in parties? Because even if you take out the LB they have a second purify with a shield, an uncurable CC, and an aoe protect that procs an aoe heal.

They literally get an instant cast Pnuema every 60 or less seconds with CC. There's more to this than DPS. If you gave other classes more ways to control the battlefield like WAR/WHM have you'd have more varied matchups. But WAR can literally yank you off of a crystal and stun everyone at once every 15s while healing itself, and WHM can not only cure spam but constantly be applying pressure while pressuring them is much more difficult compared to any other healer alone.

While I won't advocate for "nerfs" per se I'd rather see other classes be brought up in line with this, I can't see how anyone can look at the WHM kit and LB and not go "Yeah that's a little busted"

[Risvertasashi]

So you agree then that there shouldn't be a class(classes) that have a preferential makeup in parties due to an overstacked kit? Or do you think that the LB is the only thing keeping WHM from being ran at all in parties? Because even if you take out the LB they have a second purify with a shield, an uncurable CC, and an aoe protect that procs an aoe heal.

They literally get an instant cast Pnuema every 60 or less seconds with CC. There's more to this than DPS. If you gave other classes more ways to control the battlefield like WAR/WHM have you'd have more varied matchups. But WAR can literally yank you off of a crystal and stun everyone at once every 15, and WHM can not only cure spam but constantly be applying pressure while pressuring them is much more difficult compared to any other healer alone.

While I won't advocate for "nerfs" per se I'd rather see other classes be brought up in line with this, I can't see how anyone can look at the WHM kit and LB and go "Yeah that's a little busted"

I agree that there needs to be some leveling an balancing. But there's also a reason WHM is in the 60s class of limit breaks - you take that away and there isn't that much there. Yes, there's other things, but they won't matter if the enemy team can simply have more DPS to cut through. Which does already happen, 5-DPS teams are a thing and are competitive. Certainly, healing isn't powerful enough to carry through burst anymore and that's by design - everyone has an offensive kit now. And overall this seems to be liked. And the lack of role requirements in low ranks leads to wacky 3-healer 2-DPS parties or 3-tank 2-DPS or some mix and match.

But in upper ranked play, WHM and WAR (and occasionally PLD) are the only ones that can compete with DPS.

Crater WAR, and you don't start seeing more DRKs, GNBs, or even more PLDs. You just see tanks nearly vanish.

Crater WHM, and it's the same - other healers won't move into the space, healers will simply just about vanish.

That's the nature of balancing a matchmaker that has no role requirements. For a role that's already underrepresented, you have to bring up the bad ones. If you bring down the good ones, you simply make the entire role nonviable.

And, by the way, this applies to DPS too. You don't want all DPS on the level of dancer or you wouldn't see DPS at all.

That tanks (that are really DPS with a bit of support), healers (that are really DPS with a bit of CC/support), and DPS are all represented is actually a good start for a new system. The next step, then, is to bring up the ones that have fallen behind so they're no longer excluded - not to increase the number of jobs that are excluded.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Crater WAR, and you don't start seeing more DRKs, GNBs, or even more PLDs. You just see tanks nearly vanish.

Crater WHM, and it's the same - other healers won't move into the space, healers will simply just about vanish.

You're using a hammer where a scalpel would suffice. Maybe we're on the same page in terms of bringing classes up to par but I don't think "balance" means "nerfing everything". A longer cooldown, reduced potencies, changes in skill play could still work. Why does WHM NEED a dps buff on its LB?

You're assuming that those two (WAR/WHM) are there for ONLY dps when they don't always do a lot of dps but provide insane utility compared to other classes ON TOP OF dps.

I don't think they should take away "Everything" I just think every 15s Warrior being able to AOE stun and WHM having a pocket nuke every -60s is way too much, no matter what weird view of balance you have. Not when most other classes can/will be killed by animation lock in their LB, not when other classes have no CC, not when other classes have no second purify.

Having each class have a few different tools than each otehr is healthy, but giving some kits ALL the tools is unbalanced.SGE can out dps WHM, you know why it's not used as often? Because it can't stunlock people, cc people, mitigate outside of Pnuema windows usually, or escape damage and has the lowest hp pool.

So long as you acknowledge that the end factor is not solely "dps" I think we probably agree on the rebalancing efforts. I'm fine with everyone having an offensive kit, but when GNB has an offensive kit that also can be ignored in its LB and hilariously subpar compared to even a DPS job, while WAR can literally yank people off of crystals or into stun lock hell. It's not just "because they do big dps" it's because they do dps and literally have ALL of the tools other classes lack entirely or have limited versions of.

Add more VARIED tools to other classes and it will help inspire a balance. But having no damage AND no utility and/or not having any CC in a meta where stunlock is so common thanks to server ping/purify shenanigans and those roles aren't pushed out due to lack to damage, it's because they literally can't beat the other kit on a functional level without extra strain/work.

[Velnora]

You're using a hammer where a scalpel would suffice. Maybe we're on the same page in terms of bringing classes up to par but I don't think "balance" means "nerfing everything". A longer cooldown, reduced potencies, changes in skill play could still work. Why does WHM NEED a dps buff on its LB?

You're assuming that those two (WAR/WHM) are there for ONLY dps when they don't always do a lot of dps but provide insane utility compared to other classes ON TOP OF dps.

I don't think they should take away "Everything" I just think every 15s Warrior being able to AOE stun and WHM having a pocket nuke every -60s is way too much, no matter what weird view of balance you have. Not when most other classes can/will be killed by animation lock in their LB, not when other classes have no CC, not when other classes have no second purify.

Having each class have a few different tools than each otehr is healthy, but giving some kits ALL the tools is unbalanced.SGE can out dps WHM, you know why it's not used as often? Because it can't stunlock people, cc people, mitigate outside of Pnuema windows usually, or escape damage and has the lowest hp pool.

So long as you acknowledge that the end factor is not solely "dps" I think we probably agree on the rebalancing efforts. I'm fine with everyone having an offensive kit, but when GNB has an offensive kit that also can be ignored in its LB and hilariously subpar compared to even a DPS job, while WAR can literally yank people off of crystals or into stun lock hell. It's not just "because they do big dps" it's because they do dps and literally have ALL of the tools other classes lack entirely or have limited versions of.

Add more VARIED tools to other classes and it will help inspire a balance. But having no damage AND no utility and/or not having any CC in a meta where stunlock is so common thanks to server ping/purify shenanigans and those roles aren't pushed out due to lack to damage, it's because they literally can't beat the other kit on a functional level without extra strain/work.

Pretty sure they main White Mage, so...

[Risvertasashi]

You're using a hammer where a scalpel would suffice. Maybe we're on the same page in terms of bringing classes up to par but I don't think "balance" means "nerfing everything". A longer cooldown, reduced potencies, changes in skill play could still work. Why does WHM NEED a dps buff on its LB?

You're assuming that those two (WAR/WHM) are there for ONLY dps when they don't always do a lot of dps but provide insane utility compared to other classes ON TOP OF dps.

I don't think they should take away "Everything" I just think every 15s Warrior being able to AOE stun and WHM having a pocket nuke every -60s is way too much, no matter what weird view of balance you have. Not when most other classes can/will be killed by animation lock in their LB, not when other classes have no CC, not when other classes have no second purify.

Having each class have a few different tools than each otehr is healthy, but giving some kits ALL the tools is unbalanced.SGE can out dps WHM, you know why it's not used as often? Because it can't stunlock people, cc people, mitigate outside of Pnuema windows usually, or escape damage and has the lowest hp pool.

So long as you acknowledge that the end factor is not solely "dps" I think we probably agree on the rebalancing efforts. I'm fine with everyone having an offensive kit, but when GNB has an offensive kit that also can be ignored in its LB and hilariously subpar compared to even a DPS job, while WAR can literally yank people off of crystals or into stun lock hell. It's not just "because they do big dps" it's because they do dps and literally have ALL of the tools other classes lack entirely or have limited versions of.

Add more VARIED tools to other classes and it will help inspire a balance. But having no damage AND no utility and/or not having any CC in a meta where stunlock is so common thanks to server ping/purify shenanigans and those roles aren't pushed out due to lack to damage, it's because they literally can't beat the other kit on a functional level without extra strain/work.

So here's the thing, though. If you look at only their DPS it's rather low, so it's really that they need the utility. War does good damage in its LB, otherwise it's pretty much yhere solely for the utility. WHM... actually also does good damage in its LB (or when comboing with it really), but outside of that, it's there for the utility and a little healing.

And, OK, they don't need to remain exactly as is. Perhaps primal rend can go to a 25s CD. Perhaps WHM LB can go to a 90s CD and lose on or two of the effects. But a lot of people seem to think they need massive nerfs when even minor ones risk removing them from viability. And WHM already has a "nerf" coming when cure 2 gets a bug fix anyways. They look good, but they're in very precarious positions - take away even a bit too much and they're dead.

And, I agree fully about GNB. So I think we are somewhat on the same page there. And maybe you could have something like the Warrior pull moved to GNB but if that happened, a Primal Rend nerf on top of that would probably be too much.

I think it comes down to, again, the lack of role matchmaking. Even if WAR and WHM being good can give the appearance of it. If there was 1 tank slot and 1 healer slot, you could nerf WAR and WHM a fair bit, and that would create space for other tanks and healers to move in. Without that, high end DPS become the benchmark. If a tank or healer can't do as much DPS as a high end DPS, and can't make up for that with very good utility (WAR and WHM are the two non-DPS that can make up for it), then the end result is no one plays T/H. Or at least, no one playing them gets to a decent rank.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

If there was 1 tank slot and 1 healer slot, you could nerf WAR and WHM a fair bit, and that would create space for other tanks and healers to move in. Without that, high end DPS become the benchmark. If a tank or healer can't do as much DPS as a high end DPS, and can't make up for that with very good utility (WAR and WHM are the two non-DPS that can make up for it), then the end result is no one plays T/H. Or at least, no one playing them gets to a decent rank.

I mean I've seen the game "try" to get one tank and one healer on most matches so I think they're already doing that in the background.

That being said I don't agree that if you take out things from other classes they become irrelevant. I'd still play GNB regardless of DPS if I had more CC. If one person has 5 million dollars and someone says "hey you should give that person 1 million dollars" it doesn't mean they aren't a millionaire, it just means someone else can sit at the table. Primal rend CD being increased or having splash damage on hit while only stunning a specific target, or adding more cc/utility to other classes should be the way to go.

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways, but while you're focused on WHM/WAR vs other dps, I'm focused on the roles as a whole and the fact that currently while you think WHM/WAR wouldn't be played because of dps, the other tanks and healers are played less because not only do they have no dps, they ahve no utility to a certain degree. Saying "it's there solely for the utility", if it's supposed to sound like a bad thing, doesn't work to me? Because if a GNB could control the battlefield at ALL like WAR there'd be tons of fun there when a WAR vs GNB fight happens with a sort of tug of war for the crystal. Right now that tug of war is the equivalent to 2 muscle builders pulling against a bunch of children.

It should always be If > Then

If a class has less dps, then it should have more utility/heal/etc. WAR and WHM shouldn't have all the dps utility AND healing for it to be a healthy system imo. SGE having good dps won't make it more loved by the people going into battle with it, but it if had a fraction of CC that WHM had it would be less of a "welp we're going against a WHM and WAR this is pretty much already over."

I want to stop myself from seeing WAR/WHM vs me and a DRK/PLD (or if I even get a tank that round) and going "welp this is already over" because they have not only WHM and WAR to control the crystal but the other "meta" jobs like SAM and DRG that have great damage AND sustain and mitigation. The meta right now is not only dps, it's the classes that somehow got the greenlight to be given all the tools needed to deal with any scenario with skillful play.

Ironically if SE had better balanced another tank and healer, WHM and WAR probably wouldn't look so outrageous since they wouldn't be the only viable T/H options...

Agreed! That's what I'm fighting for. Less reason for players to go "Oh no I have X in my party" and more reason to go "okay I have a GNB they do this differently than WAR and I need to plan my strategy accordingly"

[Risvertasashi]

Yeah, at this point we're pretty much in agreement I think.

I mean I've seen the game "try" to get one tank and one healer on most matches so I think they're already doing that in the background.

But just to this point in particular. What I think the matchmaker is trying to do is avoid stacking classes. So if two summoners are in the queue, one will go to each team. I've seen a lot of non-symmetric teams when it comes to T/H, ie one team gets a tank, the other gets a healer and a tank. Or one team gets a healer, the other is just 5 DPS. Etc. And none of those games were automatic win/loss based on comp.

Coming back to the limitation of the current balance - if only one T/H is really viable, then avoiding dupes works out to reach team getting WHM and WAR. However! On the rare occasion that I see a PLD in the high ranks, it's every time been asymmetric. One team might be WAR+WHM+RDM+DRG+SAM, for example, the other will be WAR+WHM+PLD+RDM+DRG. Or if it's a game with no WAR+WHM combo, then it'd likely just be something like 5 DPS and PLD+4 DPS. And occasionally WHM+PLD+DPS and WHM+WAR+DPS. I'd hypothesize because paladins are so rare, it doesn't run up against criteria along the lines of "don't put two of the same class on the same team" and so can be much freer with their placement.