I would like to encourage everyone to keep providing the feedback YoshiP asked for.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Also are we even a Machinist? We feel like a glorified gunner class with very little gadgets. I know the PvP kit really isn't feasible in PvE, but it is essentially what I think of when I think MCH: each of the gadgets do a bit of CC to make them stand out from one another and not just a Drill clone. Also I want that Bishop Turret.

PvP kits now are how *most* jobs feel like they should operate. I would love it if they just built out PvP modes and gave each job just a smidge more of their PvE kits and I wouldn't feel the need to ever play PvE again.

[Roxus]

SE knows exactly what's wrong with AST as the question was asked rather early on in Shb's life cycle iirc: fix our damn cards. They said "no" then and keep tacking on this seals system.

Well it ain't working and I'll complain until you revert some of them back. Even more so now! PvP was able to make 3 of them diverse, I'm sure you could do the same for PvE.


As for MCH? Heat Blast ping issues still exist. I haven't touched it yet since 6.1 but I don't think Queen's AI has been adjusted and it needs to. Why doesn't it target what we're attacking? Flamethrower isn't as useless as Undraw is, but it may as well be. GNB's PvP Limit Break can move while it's being "casted"/channeled can we get that here?

Also are we even a Machinist? We feel like a glorified gunner class with very little gadgets. I know the PvP kit really isn't feasible in PvE, but it is essentially what I think of when I think MCH: each of the gadgets do a bit of CC to make them stand out from one another and not just a Drill clone. Also I want that Bishop Turret.

Honestly with the way things are going...expect having only 1 card left for draw now. It will give them a reason to remove redraw and at the same time probably.

For MCH, I played it a bit during SHB and it felt like an insult to what it used to be. I just found the experience very wanting, even the Queen wasn't very satisfying to use. I'm not versed enough to touch on the ping issues, but I have heard frustration from my static mate. Flamethrower was actually something I had to ask about recently because I used to see it during downtime, but now it's almost completely useless? Of course, these are just my opinions.

PvP kits now are how *most* jobs feel like they should operate. I would love it if they just built out PvP modes and gave each job just a smidge more of their PvE kits and I wouldn't feel the need to ever play PvE again.

I honestly want to try the new PvP stuff but I refuse to login as a sign of protest. How different are they compared to before? I've only heard positive things about it really.

[SeverianLyonesse]

I honestly want to try the new PvP stuff but I refuse to login as a sign of protest. How different are they compared to before? I've only heard positive things about it really.

Like completely different jobs. Job gauges are gone. Every job has its own limit break and gauge that you build and spend independent of everyone else. Off the top of my head (and without having played it yet so apologies if there are any inaccuracies--I also haven't logged in yet, not out of protest but kind of existential disappointment), changes include:

* DRK now has HP-sacrifice abilities.
* GNB has junction-role abilities.
* AST has cards with actual abilities again.
* BLM builds elemental weakness stacks on enemies.
* WHM can turn players into plant imps and has Seraph Strike from Bozja.
* SMN has Bahamut/Phoenix as limit breaks.
* RDM can free-swap between a black magic and white magic toolset.
* MCH brought back Bishop Turret and has more of a "toolkit" crowd-control vibe.
* SCH has a bit more of a "chemist" vibe and dropped faeries, Seraph is now limit break.
* DNC has an AoE charm ability.
* BRD has an AoE silence ability.
* NIN can do a "Hide" to "Assassinate" combo and removed a lot of the elemental Ninjutsu junk.
* SAM just uses ST combo finishers and can then buff them into AoEs, also LB Zantetsuken is an insta-kill with the correct debuff applied beforehand.
* DRG has a limit break that literally removes them from the field for 5 seconds and then you can target where they will land.
* Some job has like an AoE hysteria ability, I'm 90% sure its RPR but it could be WAR.

Basically, rule of thumb is for every job:

* They cut away half of the less flavorful abilities (and boy do I miss so few of them)
* They removed the job gauge as a middle man and incorporated it into the remaining abilities with stuff like stacks or triggered effects.
* They added roughly one new flavorful move per job.
* New limit break for every job.

It's such an overhaul and so fresh and elegant and I really hope PvP is just being used as a testing ground for a total PvE overhaul because the difference in quality is just so massive.

[Roxus]

Like completely different jobs. Job gauges are gone. Every job has its own limit break and gauge that you build and spend independent of everyone else. Off the top of my head (and without having played it yet so apologies if there are any inaccuracies--I also haven't logged in yet, not out of protest but kind of existential disappointment), changes include:

* DRK now has HP-sacrifice abilities.
* GNB has junction-role abilities.
* AST has cards with actual abilities again.
* BLM builds elemental weakness stacks on enemies.
* WHM can turn players into plant imps and has Seraph Strike from Bozja.
* SMN has Bahamut/Phoenix as limit breaks.
* RDM can free-swap between a black magic and white magic toolset.
* MCH brought back Bishop Turret and has more of a "toolkit" crowd-control vibe.
* SCH has a bit more of a "chemist" vibe and dropped faeries, Seraph is now limit break.
* DNC has an AoE charm ability.
* BRD has an AoE silence ability.
* NIN can do a "Hide" to "Assassinate" combo and removed a lot of the elemental Ninjutsu junk.
* SAM just uses ST combo finishers and can then buff them into AoEs, also LB Zantetsuken is an insta-kill with the correct debuff applied beforehand.
* DRG has a limit break that literally removes them from the field for 5 seconds and then you can target where they will land.
* Some job has like an AoE hysteria ability, I'm 90% sure its RPR but it could be WAR.

Basically, rule of thumb is for every job:

* They cut away half of the less flavorful abilities (and boy do I miss so few of them)
* They removed the job gauge as a middle man and incorporated it into the remaining abilities with stuff like stacks or triggered effects.
* They added roughly one new flavorful move per job.
* New limit break for every job.

It's such an overhaul and so fresh and elegant and I really hope PvP is just being used as a testing ground for a total PvE overhaul because the difference in quality is just so massive.

Interesting. That sounds promising, as I always loved having CC involved in endgame content rather than....what we have now. Maybe we'll get our Identities back alongside some less scripted fights in the future. I always had a hope that when we finished the story arc from 1.0, that they would decide "Okay, that's enough handholding, let's do some interesting things with our systems" from 7.0 onwards.

[jetteaime]

The devs do listen and I’m pretty sure they did with a idea or it’s just a coincidence. The devs are doing a great job on the game and made it a fun theme park experience. I hope they continue to grow it. When they do a good job they rarely hear it on the forums. A personal lesson I learned is to not just complain but provide feedback back to how you’d like to happen to a problem. If doesn’t matter if your idea has no likes or gets down voted. The devs might like the idea and use it.

What are you on about? Popular Twitch streamers (who the devs have stated that they watch regularly) are constantly sucking the devs’ collective d**k. Almost every ffxiv player on twitter who do nothing but take screenshots of their characters with nipple mods lynch anyone who gives any valid criticism of the game.

The devs listen? Give me a break. Look at the state MNK was in for the entirety of SB and ShB up until 5.4. Look at BRDs begging for a crumb of job identity since the beginning of ShB. Look at MCHs with their ping issues. Look at Mr. Happy & Reddit asking Yoshi P about the ping issues and its interaction with animation lock and his response being “hmm sounds like packet loss lol.”

[SeverianLyonesse]

Interesting. That sounds promising, as I always loved having CC involved in endgame content rather than....what we have now. Maybe we'll get our Identities back alongside some less scripted fights in the future. I always had a hope that when we finished the story arc from 1.0, that they would decide "Okay, that's enough handholding, let's do some interesting things with our systems" from 7.0 onwards.

Here's a thought:

Come 7.0, everything in the Hydaelyn saga will be past content. The challenge of current content will not be there AND on top of it it would represent a slog for newer players to have to play through the whole story.

Some players have proposed some kind of "second starting point" for players to begin fresh in 7.0. Maybe this could be involved in that fresh start. All content going forward uses the PVP skills, all content going backward--well it wouldn't really matter how they keep it as long as it is optional.

Starting with these job kits would also solve another important problem which is ability bloat. Most jobs are already approaching "doneness" or have already started tacking on useless win-more abilities in levels 80-90. They can't keep adding to these kits, so maybe switching to PVP kits in 7.0 would be a way to avoid having to continuously add 10 levels of abilities on top of already bloated kits every expansion.

In a weird, screwed up way, as much as the PVE changes make me doubt the devs care about the game's longevity anymore, PVP makes me hope that perhaps they are simply setting things up so that they can completely abandon the old job designs in 7.0 to make way for something more dynamic and varied like what PVP hints at. Maybe PVP is the testing ground for a new paradigm, the "safe space" of meaningless side content that they can explore without creating too much player expectation, and then if it is well-received they can transition it to PVE.

That...is my hope anyway. For all of the complaints we have about the devs being lazy and not implementing X or Y needed change, they *did* overhaul not only the lighting but also the physical assets and trust AI for past dungeons. Perhaps the reason we aren't getting more Hroth and Viera hairs is that the models are due for an overhaul in the graphics update anyway and it would have been wasted effort. IDK what to think, really.

[ASkellington]

Honestly with the way things are going...expect having only 1 card left for draw now. It will give them a reason to remove redraw and at the same time probably.

Frankly, I'm waiting to see what they do to AST in 6.2. Either way I'm going to have a ball.

But seriously, if PvP can give back Spire and Ewer (limit break and mana regen respectively) and make it work there, I'm sure they can do something similar in PvE. We have the melee range split on the cards as is, give them 3 diverse options and let us have fun.

[Roxus]

Abbreviated.

Yeah I think the new PvP actions are most definitely a test, they've mentioned something off hand like the side content that does well may be further looked into and such a long time ago. They drove themselves into that hole of "doneness" by homogenizing up to this point, so it's expected. All they can add is another line of damage because that is what their design limits them to. And it's unfortunate. I've had my monitor die on me mid fight and I can still execute the mechanics and my rotation pretty easily while switching to my backup. It's just so predictable.

I think it depends on how exactly they are updating the graphics, IMO. If they are just touching on our current engine, likely nothing is ever going to change. It's outdated. However, if we are going into what is essentially CD 2, I have high hopes they can remove so many of these supposed limitations they have claimed prevented much of the development process. Imagine the excitement of exploring what would essentially be a brand new game. Unlikely, but nice to think of.

Abbreviated.

I wholeheartedly agree. Systems they made obsolete need to start mattering again. I'm concerned that our future is auto battles and iPads at the rate we're going.

[WiccaP]

I'm not sure how a large quantity of threads being made on the dps role forum could possibly overshadow healer threads. If anyone would want to complain about it, it'd be other DPS. But I don't see many NIN or MCH players coming into these threads and raising a stink about how their issues are being ignored.

That being said I think the main difference between healer feedback and samurai feedback in this case is that SAM players are pretty united in their feedback and what they want done, whereas healer feedback all kind of agrees that healer feels unfun and unsatisfying to play, every healer seems to have a completely different ideal about how to deal with that problem. Most Samurai players want is kaiten back and auto-crits removed, it's a lot easier to implement feedback when it's that clear and universal.

As a Mch main, and I can only speak about myself, I stick to the threads that are general dps threads kinda like this one, and ones pertaining to mch/ranged physical. I havent leveled Sam or really played it. Why would I go into a thread and make comparisons to mch? Yes it does get kinda disheartening to see mostly only Sam threads, but for the most part its understandable. Sam had a key ability removed and some unwelcomed changes. Yes I understand what youre going through, MCH have had issues from the jump and the devs blatantly ignore them, going as far as to say they haven't heard any negative feedback about it for years. My husband is a healer main and I have heard all about how bad the changes are or have been in the past but Im not gonna go into a healer thread and take the conversation away from the healers to talk about DPS jobs, unless the thread is about changes overall.

Also it feels like the mch main players are fewer and farther between, which is understandable, so we'll typically have a lot of threads early when new stuff comes out and we get shafted again, but they tend to die down pretty quickly because we've been tilting at that windmill for years.

[darkdyllon]

Not every DPS is the same. MCH problems still getting ignored after 4-5 years. Damage is too low, ping problems unfixed.

in terms of mch with the ping issues (i don't get that since my internet/location is good thankfully) but it seems they are actively doubling down on that design.
giving more and more to do so you can't even double weave anymore because the GCD gets sped up like crazy, which can lead to easy GCD clipping at higher pings.