The State of Homogenization: A New (Healer) Player's Perspective

[MintnHoney]

Not meaning to be dismissive or tell him 'just go away and never ask for change'

And yet, you know that you are, in fact, being... well, that. Which I have a problem with, especially when you say things like:

if you don't enjoy the way this game injects variety into the gameplay experience

meanwhile the issue that we're having is that we don't have enough variety to support the gameplay experience for quite a few supposedly-required players in this MMO. The lack of variety in PvE is a major reason people are so excited and pleased with PVP as of 6.1, despite balancing issues and difficulty spikes of playing PvP.

Even if you want to try and argue that the "gameplay experience" has "variety" in that players can "choose to play a job," it's not enough to just stick something into the game for the sake of having it. It has to be supported and developed, otherwise the "variety" is just slapped-on and unenjoyable. I've seen many other games, MMO or otherwise, get review-bombed for "tacked on" experiences, and I know that there are many people out there that would not forgive that, so I don't understand why we're just supposed to be ok with when they decide to neglect their "gameplay experience" to the point of turning everything into sticky note levels of tacked-on.

[Kozh]

It’s unfortunate you didn’t get to experience healing pre-Shb. Healing used to be so fun, AST was amazing, we had all the cards and time magic and 2 sects

Having the knowledge of how AST operates back in pre-ShB is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because I had fun back then and fond memories of that time; a curse because seeing how gutted the job is now (same cards, no time magic) just make me want to lie down in a ditch.

[Elesh]

And yet, you know that you are, in fact, being... well, that. Which I have a problem with, especially when you say things like:


meanwhile the issue that we're having is that we don't have enough variety to support the gameplay experience for quite a few supposedly-required players in this MMO. The lack of variety in PvE is a major reason people are so excited and pleased with PVP as of 6.1, despite balancing issues and difficulty spikes of playing PvP.

Even if you want to try and argue that the "gameplay experience" has "variety" in that players can "choose to play a job," it's not enough to just stick something into the game for the sake of having it. It has to be supported and developed, otherwise the "variety" is just slapped-on and unenjoyable. I've seen many other games, MMO or otherwise, get review-bombed for "tacked on" experiences, and I know that there are many people out there that would not forgive that, so I don't understand why we're just supposed to be ok with when they decide to neglect their "gameplay experience" to the point of turning everything into sticky note levels of tacked-on.

No, I'm not. I'm telling the OP that, quite simply, their problems with this game seem - at least from the outset - to be the game itself.

It'd be like me telling From Software to change Elden Ring. My problems with that game are so systemic and intrinsic to what it is, that me complaining about it is pointless. The game is just not for me. So I don't give them that feedback or tell them to change it. I just don't play it. And I play other things.

This game is not homogenized. It is systemically stable. A lot of people mistake 'having similar basic tools' for homogenization, but it's not. White Mage and Astro play dramatically differently overall. Sage and Scholar even more differently than that. Even the most 'commonly complained about' cases of homogenization - Dark Knight and Warrior - feel significantly different in their theme, their style, and the focus. Sure, they have some basic rotational similarities and similar functioning tools... but that's how the devs manage to have 15+ classes in a game where the hardest content is groups of 8 without having certain classes be just systematically excluded from raiding entirely. They give them the basic functioning tools to work and then add flavour in terms of unique abilities, the animations, the story, and the nuance of their gameplay systems(job gauge, ogcds, unique cooldowns, etc.).

That isn't to say anything is perfect... there's definitely room for improvement. But... if your problem is the game itself, then the changes needed to make you happy would basically require reinventing the wheel. And a lot of people are MOSTLY (or at least largely) happy with the wheel.

[CrimsonGunner]

No, I'm not. I'm telling the OP that, quite simply, their problems with this game seem - at least from the outset - to be the game itself.

It'd be like me telling From Software to change Elden Ring. My problems with that game are so systemic and intrinsic to what it is, that me complaining about it is pointless. The game is just not for me. So I don't give them that feedback or tell them to change it. I just don't play it. And I play other things.

This game is not homogenized. It is systemically stable. A lot of people mistake 'having similar basic tools' for homogenization, but it's not. White Mage and Astro play dramatically differently overall. Sage and Scholar even more differently than that. Even the most 'commonly complained about' cases of homogenization - Dark Knight and Warrior - feel significantly different in their theme, their style, and the focus. Sure, they have some basic rotational similarities and similar functioning tools... but that's how the devs manage to have 15+ classes in a game where the hardest content is groups of 8 without having certain classes be just systematically excluded from raiding entirely. They give them the basic functioning tools to work and then add flavour in terms of unique abilities, the animations, the story, and the nuance of their gameplay systems(job gauge, ogcds, unique cooldowns, etc.).

That isn't to say anything is perfect... there's definitely room for improvement. But... if your problem is the game itself, then the changes needed to make you happy would basically require reinventing the wheel. And a lot of people are MOSTLY (or at least largely) happy with the wheel.

you do realize u have 70% identical skills in every one of the healers? they each have almost identical spells and skills in their healing and dps spells.
that is not a base kit if every one of your spells is copy pasted in another with no variance across all jobs in said role. you can have the same identical hotbar for each healer and it will play the same. except maybe ast but they suffer from button bloat that SE decided to create for them cause reasons.

[Elesh]

you do realize u have 70% identical skills in every one of the healers? they each have almost identical spells and skills in their healing and dps spells.
that is not a base kit if every one of your spells is copy pasted in another with no variance across all jobs in said role. you can have the same identical hotbar for each healer and it will play the same. except maybe ast but they suffer from button bloat that SE decided to create for them cause reasons.

So let's compare WhM/Astro, which are the two who share the most in terms of role.
Cure 1, Cure 2, and Medica have identical counterparts. Glare and Dia have nearly identical abilities.

That's... it, actually(aside from role actions). Essential Dignity is fairly similar to Tetragrammaton, but not identical.Celestial Intersection is fairly similar to Divine Benison, but again not identical.

So no, it's not a copy paste.

There are abiltiies that serve the same role in different ways - ex. Earthly Star and Assize serve similar roles, so could be put on the same bar, but aren't identical. Medica 2 vs Aspected Helios, again. Similar, but not identical. But you have to be REALLY reductive to say 'these abilities are identical'.

Oh and raise. But... that's basically a role action.

Please provide me any abilities I didn't mention above that White Mage has that any other healer has word for word identical. I can't think of any.

[Striker44]

That's weird (or normal). My perspective as a healer is entirely different. My main healer is SCH, and I'm using plenty of buttons. And I notice quite the difference between healing as SCH and healing as WHM. One relies on shields and has more AoE heals. The other has big single-target heals including the "oh ****" Benediction.

Personally, I love the idea of classes being easy to learn, with the "difficulty" becoming finding those select ways to master it that give you the slight bump you might need for something like EX, but where you're able to just engage with pretty much any regular ole' content you want. And if it means anything to you, I've been playing since 2015.

[Denji]

I would argue WoW has catered more towards the hardcore crowd with Mythic+ and it has NOT been good for the game overall

hardcore means nothing when you have 509 addons that play the game for you.

[CrimsonGunner]

So let's compare WhM/Astro, which are the two who share the most in terms of role.
Cure 1, Cure 2, and Medica have identical counterparts. Glare and Dia have nearly identical abilities.

That's... it, actually(aside from role actions). Essential Dignity is fairly similar to Tetragrammaton, but not identical.Celestial Intersection is fairly similar to Divine Benison, but again not identical.

So no, it's not a copy paste.

There are abiltiies that serve the same role in different ways - ex. Earthly Star and Assize serve similar roles, so could be put on the same bar, but aren't identical. Medica 2 vs Aspected Helios, again. Similar, but not identical. But you have to be REALLY reductive to say 'these abilities are identical'.

Oh and raise. But... that's basically a role action.

Please provide me any abilities I didn't mention above that White Mage has that any other healer has word for word identical. I can't think of any.

regen and aspected benefic.
medica 2 and aspected helios.
glare and dia are identical to combust and malefic the only thing different is potencies.

[Elesh]

regen and aspected benefic.
medica 2 and aspected helios.

An upfront heal + heal over time is identical to JUST a heal over time?

I think you're reaching here, my friend.

Edit: And this actually points to my problem with the 'homogenization' argument. People who complain of homogenization tend to be VERY reductive. Which goes back to one of the first things I said in this thread:

If you are reductive enough, everything is similar. An orange is the same as a chocolate bar if all you care about is that they're both edible. A car and a skyscraper are identical if you just reduce them to 'metal frame with stuff inside'.


Edit: I had originally had a bit about Medica 2 in there, but I had forgotten that Helios is just much faster and cheaper, not instant. (Not going to erase my mistake, just correct it)

[CrimsonGunner]

So you're saying an instant heal and one with a cast time are identical?
An upfront heal + heal over time is identical to JUST a heal over time?

I think you're reaching here, my friend.

i think you are trying to ignore the similarities here my friend not me reaching.

also what cast time... both regen and aspected benefic are instant cast.

wow you really try to ignore the bluntant similarities, dont you?