White Mage's 6.1 changes fail to address a core issue I have with the job.

[Yhisa]

Also just to add....

People saying 'lilies will result to overhealing" when reality that isnt true, we want to be actively using them on legit every mechanic to obtain the delicious misery every 60sec

We may want to stop using medica 2 aswell to get more blood lily back aswell.....this entire change legit forces the WHM to prioritize lilies consumption over everything

So atm with these changes....cure 3, medica 2, cure, cure 2, medica 1.....shouldnt even be on your bars.....so start using those lilies baby to do petal nukes, even if medica 2 is stronger healing potency...u still want to use lilies to get towards the blood lily

Sooo morel of the story is

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD LILY!!!

[ty_taurus]

Also just to add....

People saying 'lilies will result to overhealing" when reality that isnt true, we want to be actively using them on legit every mechanic to obtain the delicious misery every 60sec

We may want to stop using medica 2 aswell to get more blood lily back aswell.....this entire change legit forces the WHM to prioritize lilies consumption over everything

So atm with these changes....cure 3, medica 2, cure, cure 2, medica 1.....shouldnt even be on your bars.....so start using those lilies baby to do petal nukes, even if medica 2 is stronger healing potency...u still want to use lilies to get towards the blood lily

Sooo morel of the story is

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD LILY!!!

The issue is that you're encouraged to burn lilies between pulls in dungeons or 24-man raids as well as in fights with downtime. The OP mentioned specifically Ultimate fights where there tend to be several instances of phase changes where nothing is targetable for damage. Therefore WHMs burn down their lilies and will continue to do so because it's a greater DPS gain than using them as healing tools. This is not something that completely invalidates the value of using them as heals when necessary, but the best WHMs will use their lilies sparingly to try and preserve them for when burning through them can be done in fights where that's possible. And in casual content like dungeon bosses, there's a genuine concern that you'll often be using them when people don't need healing because there's nothing to heal and you don't want to overcap.

As a Sage, I get free addersgall every 20 seconds, which will be the same for WHM's lilies, and I often spend more addersgall on overhealing with Druochole because there's nothing for me to heal than I spend on actually needed heals just to get that MP return. This even happens in Savage. There are several moments in especially P1S and P2S where I will use Druochole to avoid capping, and WHM players will experience the same thing.

The change we got is a huge step forward, and one that I don't think any of us want to revert, but that doesn't change the fact that there are still issues that need to be worked out.

[Semirhage]

Also just to add....

People saying 'lilies will result to overhealing" when reality that isnt true, we want to be actively using them on legit every mechanic to obtain the delicious misery every 60sec

We may want to stop using medica 2 aswell to get more blood lily back aswell.....this entire change legit forces the WHM to prioritize lilies consumption over everything

So atm with these changes....cure 3, medica 2, cure, cure 2, medica 1.....shouldnt even be on your bars.....so start using those lilies baby to do petal nukes, even if medica 2 is stronger healing potency...u still want to use lilies to get towards the blood lily

Sooo morel of the story is

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD LILY!!!

At that point, why not put Misery on a 60 second cooldown, make lilies oGCD, and divorce Misery from the lily system entirely? It's functionally the same as blowing all of your lilies on cooldown for access to the refund nuke. That's one of my major beefs with the lily system as it's currently implemented: it certainly encourages something, but judicious ability usage ain't it.

[WaxSw]

I have some thoughts on addressing the overhealing issue as well as the downtime issue. What if we did something along the lines of this:

- Afflatus Propagation: 60 Potency offensive GCD spell with a radius of 6 yalms that applies Dia to all targets. 60 Second cooldown. Consumes 1 Lily & Nourishes the Blood Lily. Has 2 Charges
- Afflatus Purgation: 465 Potency Line AoE offensive GCD spell that deals 50% less damage to targets after the first. 120 Second cooldown. Consumes 1 Lily & Nourishes the Blood Lily.
- Efflorescence: OGCD Buff that generates 1 Lily and causes your next GCD heal to apply Regen to any/all allies. The Regen potency would be halved on AoE heals. 90 Second cooldown.
- Germinate: GCD Spell that Nourishes the Blood Lily. Does not consume a Lily. Has a 3 second recast time, delaying the GCD slightly.

Afflatus Propagation does not stack with Dia as it applies Dia, therefore it can be used instead of Dia when you want to consume a Lily or can be used for AoE Dia.

Afflatus Purgation acts as an enhancement to burst damage during buff windows since you also nourish a blood lily from it.

Efflorescence gives you a way to ensure you have lilies when you need them for healing.

Germinate is a DPS loss, but can be used to get your Misery ready during downtime.

Thoughts on something like that?

Germinate is neat idea to solve the downtime issue, its basically blm's umbral soul however I think that could (because all of this would depend on the battle design) create problems in some fights because once you reach 9s of downtime every lily used to heal is basically wasted, this could lead to Whms not wanting to not use them if the phase has less time left than the time they need to get another misery ready and fire it, not the biggest of deals tho

The aditional charge of Purgation I feel it would be unnecesary, its tied to Dia after all so I don't see much benefit on delaying it further than the time you would want it to be reapplied

Glad to see purgation around, would like it if also buff the healing or something like the pvp counterpart but for that to be meaningful and not "assize 2" the action would need charges

Efflorescence imo could use a lowering in cd instead of the Recitation cd as Propagation and Purgation would eat half of the lilies every minute

But yeah I think that would work, increase the damage options for whm when its not using afflatus heals and the job would be in a much better shape

[ty_taurus]

Germinate is neat idea to solve the downtime issue, its basically blm's umbral soul however I think that could (because all of this would depend on the battle design) create problems in some fights because once you reach 9s of downtime every lily used to heal is basically wasted, this could lead to Whms not wanting to not use them if the phase has less time left than the time they need to get another misery ready and fire it, not the biggest of deals tho

The aditional charge of Purgation I feel it would be unnecesary, its tied to Dia after all so I don't see much benefit on delaying it further than the time you would want it to be reapplied

Glad to see purgation around, would like it if also buff the healing or something like the pvp counterpart but for that to be meaningful and not "assize 2" the action would need charges

Efflorescence imo could use a lowering in cd instead of the Recitation cd as Propagation and Purgation would eat half of the lilies every minute

But yeah I think that would work, increase the damage options for whm when its not using afflatus heals and the job would be in a much better shape

I was thinking that Purgation could be tied to temperance, and instead of immediately activating it, you get Temperance while Purgation is on cooldown, but I'm sure someone would've argued there's no point in that in the off chance you want to use Temperance but can't because Purgation is off cooldown (in which case you should, ya know, use Purgation) but it does create an unnecessarily hoop to jump through. Perhaps it could work as a secondary Temperance still.

As for Propagation, I actually think tying it to Dia is the key to making it feel less dominant over the lilies because you're not losing that damage by using Dia instead if you need to preserve the lilies. Sure you'll likely be fine focusing on using Propagation as it comes off cooldown, but in savage and ultimate there may be situations where you'd rather wait or use your lilies more defensively as WHM doesn't have many other healing options that aren't losses. It's tough because we don't want to have overheal encouragement, but adding damage to lilies is tricky to avoid the Energy Drain situation.

[WaxSw]

I was thinking that Purgation could be tied to temperance, and instead of immediately activating it, you get Temperance while Purgation is on cooldown, but I'm sure someone would've argued there's no point in that in the off chance you want to use Temperance but can't because Purgation is off cooldown (in which case you should, ya know, use Purgation) but it does create an unnecessarily hoop to jump through. Perhaps it could work as a secondary Temperance still.

As for Propagation, I actually think tying it to Dia is the key to making it feel less dominant over the lilies because you're not losing that damage by using Dia instead if you need to preserve the lilies. Sure you'll likely be fine focusing on using Propagation as it comes off cooldown, but in savage and ultimate there may be situations where you'd rather wait or use your lilies more defensively as WHM doesn't have many other healing options that aren't losses. It's tough because we don't want to have overheal encouragement, but adding damage to lilies is tricky to avoid the Energy Drain situation.

Purgation/Temperance could be interesting idk if that could be pulled off tbh but even if not a simple heal buff could do the work

The thing about propagation is that its major gain is how it accelerates the misery rotation, Whm always uses dia every 30s, its something bound to happen, Propagation blend those times you reapply dia into the lily rotation so for example, lets act like propagation is the only thing introduced and a gcd of 2.5s, every minute a whm has 24 gcds and lets say they are all used for dpsing:

-Right now out of those 24: 2 are used on dia, lets say 3 on a lilly heal, 1 on misery and the remaining 18 on glare, this leads to 660*2+1240+18*310=8140 potency
-With propagation one of those dia casts would be replaced and as such we would have: 1 dia, 1 propagation, 2 lilly heals, 1 misery and (24-1-2-1-1=19) 19 glares, this leads to 660+660+1240+19*310=8450

Thats why it woudnt be held for heals but used on any lily refresh, I personally think its fine like this but as you can see if its use is tied to those moments dia is reapplied there is no point on holding a charge for later. Personally I think that if you want to add charges to an offensive action Purgation would be a better candidate, or even Efflorescence

[Deceptus]

At that point, why not put Misery on a 60 second cooldown, make lilies oGCD, and divorce Misery from the lily system entirely? It's functionally the same as blowing all of your lilies on cooldown for access to the refund nuke. That's one of my major beefs with the lily system as it's currently implemented: it certainly encourages something, but judicious ability usage ain't it.

Because then it'd be to similar to SCH's and their fairy gauge (not having any real interaction)

[rewd]

At that point, why not put Misery on a 60 second cooldown, make lilies oGCD, and divorce Misery from the lily system entirely? It's functionally the same as blowing all of your lilies on cooldown for access to the refund nuke. That's one of my major beefs with the lily system as it's currently implemented: it certainly encourages something, but judicious ability usage ain't it.

While I agree that the system is still flawed and needs improvements, I prefer the current system because it does make lilies quite versatile at least. You could use them for healing, but also for movement or for weaving opportunities (lilies allow for a lossless raise for example).

[Semirhage]

While I agree that the system is still flawed and needs improvements, I prefer the current system because it does make lilies quite versatile at least. You could use them for healing, but also for movement or for weaving opportunities (lilies allow for a lossless raise for example).

I mean yes, but I was replying to someone suggesting that blowing lilies as often as possible was the name of the game.

Still hate 'em. You can use them for moving (and overhealing) or weaving (and overhealing). They're like a more sophisticated Freecure trap. They allow you to do important, useful things by funneling you into casting healing spells whether they're useful or not, which is how bad healers play. I'd much rather a system that rewards the player for timing their resource use well, or tempts them with tough choices that all lead to positive outcomes that are hard to discern which is better. Lilies are like that bad healer tutorial on the sidelines shouting "you should be casting healing spells constantly, all the time! That's how skilled healers play".

[ty_taurus]

Purgation/Temperance could be interesting idk if that could be pulled off tbh but even if not a simple heal buff could do the work

The thing about propagation is that its major gain is how it accelerates the misery rotation, Whm always uses dia every 30s, its something bound to happen, Propagation blend those times you reapply dia into the lily rotation so for example, lets act like propagation is the only thing introduced and a gcd of 2.5s, every minute a whm has 24 gcds and lets say they are all used for dpsing:

-Right now out of those 24: 2 are used on dia, lets say 3 on a lilly heal, 1 on misery and the remaining 18 on glare, this leads to 660*2+1240+18*310=8140 potency
-With propagation one of those dia casts would be replaced and as such we would have: 1 dia, 1 propagation, 2 lilly heals, 1 misery and (24-1-2-1-1=19) 19 glares, this leads to 660+660+1240+19*310=8450

Thats why it woudnt be held for heals but used on any lily refresh, I personally think its fine like this but as you can see if its use is tied to those moments dia is reapplied there is no point on holding a charge for later. Personally I think that if you want to add charges to an offensive action Purgation would be a better candidate, or even Efflorescence

Well that's kind of impossible to do when the cooldown is 60 seconds, and perhaps it would be best to raise it to 90 seconds, but you can't exactly use a lily that you gain 1 of every 20 seconds exclusively on a 60 second cooldown. You'd sit on so many wasted lilies that you'd be highly suboptimized.